Is the head a bit U? Or am I?

[EyeOfNewtToeOfFrog]

DD (7, y3) is bright but can be a very difficult child at times. However, her school are really not helping matters - I think they have lost all sense of proportion with disciplining her.

Last week DD bought a Practical Joke book from the school book fair. The following day she smuggled the rude-noise-making putty into school (against my express instruction) and played a prank on one of the break supervisors (who happens to be her close friend's mum): "Oooh, is that you farting, Mrs X?"

DD was promptly hauled into the head master's office for a chat about 'inappropriate' behaviour It was described as a 'serious event' to us parents. We obviously backed to school up 100% to DD's face, but privately I'm wondering if that wasn't a SLIGHT overreaction from school. She's 7 and bought the offending item at school FFS!

I also wonder whether Fartgate was simply the last straw in a well nigh constant series of disruptive behaviour. Because although it's hardly the most serious issue in the history of the world, it has to be taken into context. Thus if your dd was normally a well behaved child, the school would probably have dealt with it by telling her not to be rude and silly. If, as you admit, there are problems with her behaviour at school then it may well be that they've reached zero tolerance point.

I also had a child who could have, if I'd be prepared to credit him with it, been described as "too bright for his own good". But I wasn't prepared to encourage his natural tendency to be a combination of Zippo the Clown and Che Guevara - despite not being a natural conformist myself. Eventually, he realised that he'd need to wind his neck in and perhaps save his constant commentary for situations that deserved it. He also had a couple of teachers who thought he was "naughty" but then, looking back, I rather suspect he was.

i've seen it happen.
I went to school with a few kids who were perceived as the naughty child, an all through their school career , they were consistently given worse punishment (or blame when they didn't do something) than anyone else.
in fact, i saw it time and time again where they were told not to be naughty before they'd even set foot in the classroom!
I don't think that's fair on children. It sets them up to be bad because they know they'll be punished anyway.

I think you know this is not ok, because in your later post you speak quite a bit about your worries your daughter doesn't 'get' social contexts. I agree with this, my dd's think farting jokes are hilarious, and one of the regular purchases is a whoopee cushion (which bursts with over use after a week or two). BUT, they would play this joke on me or my husband, or each other.

They would not take the item into school (as no items are allowed into school) and they wouldn't dream of doing this to a teacher or TA.

It IS undermining to a TA if they are trying to organize a line, or discipline a class and someone lets off a farting noise and shouts out. I can't see why you don't see this really.

And, her punishment isn't a punishment she cares about, she probably thinks the headteacher is ranty old man and is over the top (as you do). I don't mean this nastily, I have a friend whose child is similar, they really don't care about the authority of teachers. I don't think you have necessarily taught her this, but perhaps you are subtly reinforcing her not caring attitude a little too much.

I feel for you, I think you are defensive about your child as secretly you are worried there's something wrong. There may be, there may not be, children are peculiar little things, and not every defiant child goes on to have a diagnosable disorder, just as all odd children don't have autism.

she should have been THRASHED and made to EAT the putty

But she did do something naughty, so that was responded to.

Sending a child to the head is not out of proportion to the deliberately rude thing that the child did. She needed to be told by someone other than the teacher who she directed her rudeness at that she was behaving badly. We would always support other members of staff in this way at my school, where oddly enough the vast majority of children are very polite and respectful to us and each other.

Well, I think DD has aspects of a mild learning disability. Which means she struggles to understand things like hierarchy, and the subtleties of what's appropriate and what's not. I think she needs help with this, rather than punishment (or rather - not JUST punishment). And she is not a nasty girl in the slightest - she wouldn't set out to hurt, embarrass or humiliate anyone. She frequently does - but not on purpose.

If a child needs help to understand the subtleties of social rules, surely you need to pay particular attention to proportionate punishment and consistency of discipline? If every little misdemeanour (especially one that was intended as funny, i.e. socially plesurable) ends up with a chat with the head, how does DD learn what is serious and what is not?

i agree.

when i was at school, i was accused (wrongly) of stealing.
that warranted a trip to the head.
trips to the head were for major crimes.

this would not have warranted a trip to the head.
kept in at break, maybe, but not sent to the head.

even if it's one of many crimes.

Look OP all your child did was break the school rules and bring something to school that she (nor anyone else) is allowed.

You also didn't allow her to do it.

All the Head did, was chat to her about her inappropriate behaviour.

Or are you suggesting she should be allowed to disobey you and the school as she sees fit because the 'crime' was a small one?

Seriously, how do you expect a school to have any kind of control over their pupils if they don't enforce their own rules?

Really? Child plays cheeky joke so needs to be labelled with a disability?

Maybe she is just a bit of rebel with a wicked sense of humour :)

So how is sending her to a teacher who will tell her what she did was wrong and explain that she shouldn't be rude to teacher is that way not the best thing to do?

How are they supposed to help teach her what is acceptable and what is not if you don't want them to tell her? Surely she will see that what she did is unacceptable if it resulted inner being sent to the head?

My ds has AS, so I do know what it's like to have a child that doesn't automatically 'get' social norms. But he can be taught what is acceptable and what is not by people telling him. Even if he doesn't understand why.

tbh, I am always a bit when an op comes on to a thread, states a case, and then when the majority don't agree with her comes back and says that there have been appointments and issues and there should be a diagnosis of some sort. Sorry but I am, and I think that's using potential sn to bring a thread round to their own POV. If the op had stated the child had sn then peoples' opinions might be different, although even a child with sn is not being harshly treated to be told that playing a practical joke like that is not appropriate IMO.

Some children are in fact just naughty little brats who have no respect for authority. And that behavior is reinforced every time their parent excuses it on the basis of what they think is wrong, even though the professionals don't agree.

Worra - I'm in complete agreement with school that what DD did was wrong and she was rightly punished for it. Both at home and a chat with the head at school. What we disagree on was how serious the incident was, and what would be the best way to tackle DD's continued bad behaviour. I feel the school has cast DD in the 'naughty child' role, and she's finding it impossible to break free from that as she gets hauled over the coals for even minor incidents that another child would not be punished for.

The fact that this strategy has not yet worked should be telling the school something. It is certainly telling me something!

"How are they supposed to help teach her what is acceptable and what is not if you don't want them to tell her? Surely she will see that what she did is unacceptable if it resulted inner being sent to the head?"

I know it's not my DD, but I completely think she should have been told off. However, I don't think the parents should have gotten involved. It was not that serious.

And even if she does have 'aspects of a mild learning disability'...that doesn't mean she can get away with behaving as she chooses without being spoken to by the Head or any member of staff for that matter.

I don't think 'being sent to the head' means the same thing anymore.

When I was at primary school, the head (a lovely but stern matronly lady) almost never spoke to us. I never went to see the head or had more than 2 min interaction in my entire school career.

Nowadays, a lot of heads are much more approchable, ours stands outside the school gates and greets everyone every day, and is often chatting/interacting with children, as well as running clubs and teaching. He's really hands on.

I don't think your child was sent there as a big bad punishment, more just to set some zero tolerance boundaries for her (as she can't obviously cope with more flexible ones) and to let her know this wasn't ok behaviour.

I'm guessing she's not remotely traumatised by visiting the head and wouldn't care if she was sent there again anyway, am I right?

but she was naughty. What do you think they should have done?

X posted OP but can you please describe how she was 'hauled over the coals'?

If you feel another child wouldn't be punished for doing what she did (and I don't see how you could know that) then maybe it's because she's on a last warning and her behaviour has been flagged up to be dealt with by the Head?

If a normally well behaved child got sent to the Head for a first offence like that...then we'd agree that the school are way OTT.

But it's not the first time your child's been naughty so that's why she got sent to the Head I expect.

Mumsyblouse yes I do agree with that. When we were at school seeing the head was like getting a glimpse of God. and if he actually spoke to us then you were considered privilaged. But God help you if you were sent to his office. Mind you when a friend of mine was sent there for breaking a window we considered him a bit of a hero - it was a bit like a badge of honour getting a caning from the head.

If I have understood the OP correctly, the issue is not that her dd was sent to the head for a talking-to about the inappropriateness and rudeness of what she did, but the fact that the school are punishing every single instance of bad behaviour, despite knowing about her dd's issues, both from her and from the Ed Psych. Surely it is in the school's best interests to put into place some sort of plan to deal with these issues that doesn't just punish the bad behaviour, but gives the girl some sort of positive structure to work within (that works for her and the school) and that rewards her when she does show improvement.

I too would be wondering if my child was being labelled as the bad child, and treated accordingly. And always losing Golden time is really going to demoralise this girl, and in the long run this will be counterproductive.

I'm honestly not sure what is socially pleasurable (from the TA's point of view) about a child shouting "have you farted Miss?". Not a hanging offence, admittedly but not appropriate at school either. So yes, a misdemeanor but not one that can be justified as being a charmingly humourous attempt to brighten up the TA's day.

It frightens me a tiny, tiny bit how many people are referring to the child as "naughty." If she gets this a lot in real life, she may just be living up to the label she has been given.

Her behaviour may have been naughty, but the doesn't necessarily equate with her as a person.

Think it was about the respect for adults etc. !! And by the sounds of it not a lot of respect as she went against your wishes to take in offending putty!!

she gets hauled over the coals for even minor incidents that another child would not be punished for

That is because they are taking a 'zero tolerance' approach.

She wasn't excluded - she was sent to the HT for a chat about acceptable behaviour.

Most schools have a behaviour policy and a clearly defined set of responses to bad behaviour. If she had reached the "go to the HT for a chat" stage of the process, then what were they to do?!

EyeofNewt I think this incident should spur you into doing something constructive for your DD. Having been a teacher I know that certain constantly disruptive pupils can end up being hauled over the coals for the slightest thing because if they're not their behaviour gets completely out of control. Some children need a mild telling off for slightly inappropriate behaviour, others need the whole works. Usually the ones who need the whole works are ones that, like your DD, have mild learning difficulties.

Your DD isn't handling school well. She is ending up in severe trouble for things that the genuinely doesn't understand are wrong. The school are dealing with her badly because they expect her to behave the same as every other child and when she doesn't they overreact rather than understanding that she has difficulties.

In your position I would arrange a meeting with her class teacher and the head to have a serious discussion about why things have gotten so bad. On the face of it what she did was really nothing, so there must be a reason why they're coming down on her so hard. Try not to be defensive, listen to what they say with an open mind in the hope that you can help your DD. It must be horrible for her to get in so much trouble.

Wannabe, we obviously went to school around the same time, getting sent to the head did often mean being caned, for the boys at least.

SDTG, I actually agree the OP should go in for a chat about how the school manages her daughter's behaviour. In my dd's school they have extra sessions and a place for children who need more attention/have SN/need better discipline/boundaries, where they work on their own or in small groups, and it's all very caring and nice. This is coupled with a tough line on misdemeanours and so the two things complement each other. There should be both positive and negative reinforcement in there, I'd be surprised if there isn't.

But I would not raise this incident, or blame the school for being heavy-handed, as telling off a child who humiliated or undermined a TA is pretty typical (if it had been a teacher, she probably wouldn't have got sent to the head as a teacher would have had the authority to deal with it themselves).