To ask the nursery about grace?

[Stangirl]

My DD (2) attends a nursery 2 days a week - since last October. I am very happy with the nursery and love the way the staff are with the kids. DD seems very happy there.

They just had a Mother's Afternoon where the mums were invited in to attend a music and movement session, facepainting, playing, tea with the kids. I went along and it was lovely apart for one thing - one of the children was asked to say grace before the sandwiches and said a few words thanking god. I was shocked by this as I had believed them to be non-religious - teaching and celebrating all festivals etc but not active worshipping. As an avowed atheist I am quite perturbed.

Would you ask them if this is usual and if they are teaching them grace?

Eek, its that is.

I've certainly never thought of asking nursery or school if they say grace (have just asked ds1 (6) and he's no idea of what grace is so reckon they don't do it at either).

It would be interesting to know why nursery didn't ever mention that they say grace when showing parents around the nursery -sounds like the manager assumes albeit wrongly that everybody has some religion but if it's in culturally diverse area you would have thought that this would have made them more likely to ask in case they managed to offend somebody

Op (I think) mentioned about not wanting her dd to be the odd one out by not joining in because nobody else has raised it as an issue and so take part. However It would be interesting to know if they asked all the parents how many of them would actively choose for their dc to take part vs the number that currently (just like op) haven't objected because it never occurred to them that grace would be said.

And if the op is the only one that has spoken to them about it then what if she asked them to do a star wars grace (may the forks force be with you, for example) then how would they respond to that?

For all those of you who say that it doesn't do any harm and just let dd do it, do you really not get how incredibly rude, disrespectful and supercilious a thing that is to say to someone? And would you all be saying the same thing if the grace included words to actively say something you actively disagreed with - such as that there is no such thing as god - as a poster asked earlier (rather than just a nice quiet thought such as thank you farmers for growing the food and thank you cook for cooking it)? I suspect not!

zipzap - your last para. - THAT. With bells on.

Zipzap- your last paragraph expresses perfectly a sentiment that for some reason that escapes me, mumsnetters find completely impossible to grasp!

I cannot fathom the complete intolerance harboured on this thread to religion in general, but Christianity in particular by atheists. I find it really sad that a country which I am proud to live in, with a rich multicultural, multifaith tapestry has people who cannot find it in their hearts to accept other people's beliefs on the way that I, as a Christian can accept theirs.

In answer to a previous poster, if my children were being exposed to a daily reading from the Qu'ran, Torah etc. I wouldn't have an issue with it - I would strongly encourage them to respect others for their differences. Just because they have been exposed to another faith doesn't mean that they are going to start faithfully practicing it. Our society is about freedom of speech, and freedom of religious choice (and correspondingly, people should be free to choose to have no religion at all). But again, I find many (although not all) atheists on here to be somewhat intolerant, and dare I say it, hostile.

Very very sad :(

Of course I accept your beliefs! You can worship your god what ever way you wish. And my children will be respectful and tolerant. But this is about expecting my child to worship your god too.

'mumsnetters find completely impossible to grasp!'

Someone else resorting to calling posters thick.

It's not that I don't understand what's being said seeker, it's that I have a different opinion of things as they stand.

Having a different opinion and putting that point across are not the same as being unable or unwilling to follow a discussion.

I don't think there is hostility at all. I simply think that there is a failure amongst the non atheists to accept that atheism isn't simply an absence of faith, it's a strong desire to base your life around facts.

I happily tolerate other's beliefs & will encourage my children to learn as much as they can about faith & individual religions. If they decide to adopt one, so be it.

HOWEVER, I have the right to object to one denomination of one religion being thrust upon them.

I was FORCED to participate in grace & other prayers in assembly at school, sing the hymns etc. I chose at a young age to attend these elements of the school (non church school) day but maintain a respectful silence. This wasn't good enough apparently. I think that is intolerant.

I certainly don't wish my children to be forced to be hypocrites. At the age of 2, I don't want them to be blindly led into anything they don't understand. If it's harmless, then presumably it's also meaningless & therefore pointless, so don't do it.

Is that even handed enough for you? If not, I suggest you are the intolerant one.

Agent zigzag. Ok then, explain to me in words of one syllable why is is all right for the op's child to be expected to put their hands together and thank a Christian god for their lunch? How would you feel if your child was expected to take part in q bit of Devil worship before meals, or pour a libation to the Mother Goddess? Or To listen to a two minute exposition on why there is categorically mo God?

'Ok then, explain to me in words of one syllable why is is all right...'

At least you've insinuated you're thick too for the purpose of balance

The examples you're using haven't been major influences in the fabric of our modern society seeker.

A society I believe is on the whole a fair, tolerant and peaceful one (although I accept it isn't all rainbows and fluffy kittens, but those qualities being a benchmark to strive for are a good enough start for me as opposed to the acquisition of wealth and power and violent political suppression of the opposition that would go with a dictatorship).

Why does that mean that the op's child should be expected to pray to a Christian god before meals?

The OP should expect, given the country she lives in, that saying grace may be a part of the state education her DD is in.

And you don't see a problem with this? That's what I mean about not being able to grasp the problem. Praying is an important thing- I just don't understand why Christians are prepared to see it devalued like this.

And what if the child was a Muslim, or belonged to some other Jon Christian faith? Is it ok for them to be asked to pray to a Christian god too?

WHat the nursery should do is a different food-related superstition every day. Mondays Christianity, Tuesdays Islam, Wednesdays Hindu, Thursday Wicca, Friday Judaism. And five more for the following week if someone else can come up with them, obviously including one day for the rationalists when they thank the kitchen staff and the farmers and the butchers and the bakers.

Why not? It won't do them any harm. It's educating them about different belief systems.

Oh if people are hostile to the continued priviliging of one superstition over the rest, it's not just because it is fundamentally ridiculous to believe in gods, it's because of the long, long history of harm and oppression and needless waste of lives that can be laid at the door of this nastily effective instrument of social control.

Religion was set up in order to keep the masses in their place and privilege one set of people over others. That's what it's for.

Gaviscon - you think I am intolerant because I respect others views? Dearie me, words fail!

Oh, and I rather think that a 1 minute optional grace before meals is not having a religion thrust down one's throat.

Just a thought though, given that Christianity is the UK's foremost religion, how would your attitude differ if it was a Jewish prayer said before lunch? Does that make it right as its not the dominent religion of our country? Just sayin' like.

Oh, and I totally respect your views regarding opting out of religion, but I feel that you are disrespecting my right to celebrate my beliefs when you belittle what I believe in. I think we differ!

As an atheist I choose to send my children to a deeply religious christian state primary school.
School are able to add a dimension to their lives that we simply would not do at home.
They are being raised to be questioning young people, (if somewhat confused).

No one is suggesting that the ops child should be forced to join in. Merely expressing surprise that the OP was surprised by it happening in the first place.

None of the Christians here have expressed anything other than tolerance.

I have pointed out a number of facts about religion in the country.

I've just about run out of different ways of arguing the same thing, saying grace is not particularly remarkable in a nursery setting in the uk, remove your child from it if it doesn't suit OP, I doubt anyone at the nursery will mind...

Gaviscon- sounds like you were exposed to some intolerance as a child, sorry to hear it, but I don't think it is the same as what the op is describing.

Solid- no, you describe how it has been historically misused, not what it is for.

But - the fact that this country has historically had a Christian-majority population does not mean that it is a reason why children of non-Christians should be made to say prayers

It seems to me there are 3 possible options here, and that Xtian posters are trying to claim a bit of each of them!

a. The UK is a Christian country. This is official state policy and all state institutions are effectively Christian and require statements of belief - as you used to have to do to attend university, for example (state subsidised institutions). This may not reflect the actual day-to-day practice of most British people, but hey, we're not worried about most people's rights, and atheists/ Muslims/ whoever can suck it up.

b. The UK is a historically Christian country which is now home to people of all and no faiths. All these faiths should be respected, as well as lack thereof. So state institutions allow all mainstream faith positions and people with no faith to have air time. The nursery in this case would alternate 'graces' in reflect the views of Christians, atheists, Hindus etc.

c. The UK is a historically Christian country but the evolution of Anglicanism as a rationalist faith has conspired to produce a largely secular population, and state institutions should reflect that, as it is what how most people practically live. This means that all mainstreams faiths (and no-faith) should be learnt about in schools and nurseries, but none practised, and people's right to practice or not in private should be carefully defended.

I go for c personally but it seems a lot of people on this thread want a bit of each! I don't think they're compatible. Saying this country is a Christian country even when most people do not regularly attend church is asserting that a minority viewpoint has more rights/ power than the majority of people who don't actively practice the Anglican faith.

And Calvert your post at 16.47 avoids the issue by talking about your child being asked to participate in another theistic grace.

What if your DC was asked once a week to say the equivalent of 'I don't believe in God' - even if you wanted to raise him/ her to be Christian? Would you be okay with that? If you would, then fine.

But if, as I strongly suspect, you would not, then you are asking atheists to compromise their principles and feel disrespected just in the same way you would feel! Why is this okay for atheists but not Christians? If your answer is that there are more Christians than atheists (which I don't believe btw) then isn't that just the tyranny of the majority?

solid your posts about religion, in particular Christianity - are as ill informed as they are offensive, as ever.

For what it is worth my dh and I are followers of Jesus and are bringing ds up that way too. We will teach him about other religion and about having no religion at all, but not as different options as for us there is only one option. Christianity is not a belief system we opt into, it's a matter of life and death.

That said I don't see the need to have my ds's nursery say grace. I don't think it's offensive, or wrong, but just not necessary. Grace is something we can teach about and do at home.

The Calvert "In answer to a previous poster, if my children were being exposed to a daily reading from the Qu'ran, Torah etc. I wouldn't have an issue with it - I would strongly encourage them to respect others for their differences."

What if it wasn't just a reading from the Qu'ran, but instead they were being made to praise allah?

But isn't the point of the OP that the nursery weren't up front? The op found out grace was said only because she attendedan event. Up until that point it asntoptional.

And of course I'd feel the same if it was a Jewish prayer! Are you wilfully misunderstanding me?!

...You would ask them to respect others for their differences - but by praying to another god etc, it makes them part of it.