To ask the nursery about grace?

[Stangirl]

My DD (2) attends a nursery 2 days a week - since last October. I am very happy with the nursery and love the way the staff are with the kids. DD seems very happy there.

They just had a Mother's Afternoon where the mums were invited in to attend a music and movement session, facepainting, playing, tea with the kids. I went along and it was lovely apart for one thing - one of the children was asked to say grace before the sandwiches and said a few words thanking god. I was shocked by this as I had believed them to be non-religious - teaching and celebrating all festivals etc but not active worshipping. As an avowed atheist I am quite perturbed.

Would you ask them if this is usual and if they are teaching them grace?

No, not a church school.

There are no secular schools in England-they are all subject to the same education acts on collective worship. Is the nursery attached to a school?

Hi Stangirl

I sympathise with you. My DD's after school provider was changed and they started saving grace when they had their snack. They didn't make everyone join in but it left children sitting at the side having to be quiet. My DD felt very awkward and thought the workers were all starting at them.

As it is not a religious school I was quite surprised and I raised it with the manager. She advised that a few children had asked for it. We discussed saving grace before meal as opposed to snacks, that the school doesn't say grace and how uncomfortable this made my dd feel. I advised while I believed in being respectful towards religion i had not chosen a religious school, this was a snack and my dd should not be asked to be quiet.

They have dropped the group prayer and now ask the children to say it quietly if they wish to do so. My dd reports that only 2-3 of them do so.

Initially I was furious but I waited and had a discussion in a quiet and rational tone. However I would have complained further if they hadn't stopped,

Genuine question to Christians on this thread- particularly zigzag and house;

Would you be happy for your children to have daily Quran readings at school and nursery?

Sorry home, not house

'Genuine question to Christians on this thread- particularly zigzag and house;'

Where have I said anything about what I do/don't believe bejeezus?

I am not a mum yet but Stan I am really surprised to hear you were not made aware of this when you joined. tbh it's not something I would think to ask about either, as I would assume if the nursery had a Christian ethos they would make it clear to parents when signing up.

I'd take issue with the idea that 'this is a Christian country'. A nation is essentially an imaginary construct - it's mutable - it's a notional community made up of what people think the nation is about. Since lots of people demonstrably don't think this is a Xtian country, I don't think you can simply retort 'it is'. My experience of living here is completely non-Xtian, for e.g.

I also think it's interesting that the nursery seems only in practice to be using Xtian prayers. Despite what the manager said, I doubt she is really doing Hindu prayers on Monday, Sikh on Tuesday, a reading from the Torah on Weds, etc. So it is a de fact Christian thing, and you should have been told that.

Here is a genuine, non-arsey question to Christian parents on this thread: if your DC were at a non-religiously-affiliated nursery, and said grace most days, would you also be happy for them once a week to say something like this? -

Mrs Brown in the kitchen made this food, and we are very grateful to her, and not God, who doesn't exist - thank you Mrs Brown!

If you would not be happy with your DC saying that once a week - after all, won't hurt them, will it! - how do you justify slamming the OP?

Ok, zig apologies. I skim read thread. You and home stood out as posters who thought it was unreasonable to object to grace. I must have assumed you were Christian

Would you object to daily Quran readings?

Hehe, from one skim reader to another, I totally understand bejeezus

'Would you object to daily Quran readings?'

I think that's where the argument about it being another country comes in, because although everyone has the right to an opinion and to challenge what happens in the UK, reading from the Quran routinely in schools isn't the question.

Which I suppose is where the unavoidable historical context has to come in too.

All anyone can do is work with what we have, in a comparison to what we've had in the past and what other societies have now I'd say I'm comfortable with things as they are in schools.

If I lived in an Islamic country, then I would not object to daily qu'ran readings in school.

Revolting- I wouldn't like the grace you suggest, but I would simply ask that my dc be allowed to sit quietly and not join in (I would then explain my thoughts on it to my dc). I think what is more likely to be the case is that it would say 'thank you Mrs. brown for making this lovely food for us'. I wouldnt object to that in the slightest.

I think while the head of state is also head of the church of England, the prime minister asserted a few months ago that we are a Christian country, and Christian values are the basis of our laws and governance, however much you don't 'recognise' it in your own life, it surrounds us. There is a church in almost every village, faith schools are widespread, non-faith schools have a duty of collective worship, carol concerts/navities abound in schools/community centres... Christmas is routinely called Christmas and not 'winter festival' or similar. the list of ways that Chritianity permeates our society is an extremely long one.

Religion is on the decline in this country. Just because we were a christian country, doesn't mean it has to stay like that just for old times sake.

i think too many people leave their children worshipping in school because they haven't really thought about what they are doing or they don't want to make their children different by removing them. If all of us who are not religious (and don't want enforced worship of something our children don't believe in and don't want Christianity taught as fact) opted out in school then the schools/govt would get more of an idea that we don't want this anymore in this country.

You're presuming it's something people feel strongly about wanksock, which it'd have to be for it to change quickly.

Most people have thoughts on it, but because they're not strong things have evolved gradually to where we are now.

Have you opted your DC out (if you live in the UK)?

When you hear your children say how difficult it can be sometimes to fit in with their peer group, what you've said underestimates the effect forcing your children to be different because of your own private religious beliefs (or fervent lack of) could have on them.

Not many people would choose to make their children stand out at school if they thought it'd distress them for whatever reason (and I mean being taken out of a class/assembly and being 'different' rather than their distress at missing out on having a quick pray ).

Yes that is exactly my point - people are keeping the enforced worshipping/brainwashing because they don't want them to stand out! You might not feel strongly about it, but given the choice would you like schools to chant prayers or not?

If there was no enforced worship then no children would have to be excluded at all. I just don't see how religion has a place in schools apart from RE. It should be for churches where like minded people get together or at home.

If things were as you say and parents don't take their children out because they don't want them to stand out, wouldn't they be outraged at feeling they didn't have the choice (when choice is demanded at every other stage of education) which points to this not being the reason?

If that was the case there'd be widespread and quick changes to the system, and there haven't been.

That's your reality though scar I don't live in a village, I live in an inner city area. There are as many mosques and temples as churches within walking distance of my house. Quran readings has been a problem in one of the local community schools. Our school celebrates religious festivals of all the faiths within the school but without religious teaching

I hear what you say about Christianity having shaped our history. But so has war and slavery

But we've changed the bits about war and slavery that people felt strongly about, just as we've changed the bits we don't like about the way christianity is entwined with our social institutions.

'the bits we don't like' is very subjective. There is no we. A lot of people I know would class saying grace in schools as 'a bit we don't like'

I think the misconception often is that atheists are a bit wishy-washy liberal, don't really know what they believe in, don't mind kind of people....

I am a staunch atheist, very devout...I absolutely don't want my daughter to be told that there is a god and she needs to thank him foe her food. If she decides at an age when she can rationalisé the idea foe herself, that there is a god, then so be it

For the record I also live in a city, although perhaps not in as multi faith an environment as you describe. My point was more about how churches are everywhere, even in remote villages. The same cannot be said for mosques/temples, and I was using this fact as way of evidencing my opinion that Christianity is the widespread mainstream in the uk.

Bejeezus, we have changed the bits that the democratic majority want changing. That (I think) is the we that zig is referring to.

Is it telling that you've used the expression of being devout which is usually associated with religion to say how atheist you are bejeezus?

I agree, they are subjective feelings we're talking about, but when enough people felt enough emotion to collectively change the way ownership of another person was viewed, or the millions being slayed in fruitless battles on the fronts in WWI, that's the difference.

Christianity and all its accoutrements have changed to what we have now, the way to change further it is through legislation, making it a policial issue in a democratic society.

I hate it when people reduce arguments down to 'if you don't like it then cast your vote elsewhere', but that's essentially it, if it wasn't then I presume it'd have changed more to the view of society you say you'd prefer?

Not sure what you mean agent, there would be nothing to have a choice about?

I guess there have not been changes to the system because most people (like you) don't feel that strongly about it. If you were to vote on it though, would you be for or against worship in schools?

And I'm assuming there that democratic processes work, which I know of course is unreasonable of me

I used the word on purpose zig to try to relate to religious people, the strength of my atheist beliefs.

Churches are everywhere, but they are under utilised now, here in Aberdeen many of the city centre churches have been converted to pubs/clubs. Works really well, the altar bit is good for the DJ,bar all along one side, pews (sp?) for booths and they are nice buildings.

OP - you were there to celebrate Mothering Sunday, a Christian festival. The fact that Hallmark make a lot of money out of it doesn't make it any less of a Christian event which you are happy for the nursery to celebrate and you will, no doubt, join in with this weekend. If you're going to raise your DD as an athiest, you really should put your money where your mouth is and stop doing the 'fun' bits of Christianity and only objecting to the more 'duty' side of it.

Mother's Day, like most (all?) Christian festivals, has it's roots in pre-Christian times. I fail to see why people cannot continue to give thanks to their mothers without being Christians, as Christians gave (give) thanks without believing in Roman gods. Festivals evolve with the times.