To ask the nursery about grace?

[Stangirl]

My DD (2) attends a nursery 2 days a week - since last October. I am very happy with the nursery and love the way the staff are with the kids. DD seems very happy there.

They just had a Mother's Afternoon where the mums were invited in to attend a music and movement session, facepainting, playing, tea with the kids. I went along and it was lovely apart for one thing - one of the children was asked to say grace before the sandwiches and said a few words thanking god. I was shocked by this as I had believed them to be non-religious - teaching and celebrating all festivals etc but not active worshipping. As an avowed atheist I am quite perturbed.

Would you ask them if this is usual and if they are teaching them grace?

Why can't we just accept that we are a country with many different cultures and sometimes our children will be exposed to said cultures? And more importantly, that exposure isn't a negative or life changing thing. If you truly want them to decide for themselves, then a little exposure to religions (any of them) should be considered a welcome opportunity for them to learn a bit about another belief system which may well help them discover who they are and what they believe.
I mean, really! I wonder how many of the atheists (antitheists) on this thread were raised by religious parents? Or had religious grandparents? And yet you some how managed to make your own decisions about life, the universe and everything. Could we not give our children credit that they are capable of the same self-awareness?

well said ThisIsANickname

Its nice to know that I am being prejudged on my faith by someone who has never met me... Way to go Gil.

I'd like to think that as a Christian, I have respect and tolerance for all my non-Christian buddies, be they Muslim, Jewish, Atheist or Jedi :o

going to church makes you happy

Hey, even if you don't believe in God, you can still enjoy the benefits of going to church

Lydia I genuinely never realised that Mother's Day was a Christian festival until you wrote that - I just assumed it was something nice that had grown up culturally around Springtime following pagan traditions around fertility and re-birth - like Maypoles and Morris Dancing.

You would consider me a terrible dilletante of religion. Not only do I like a card for Mothering Sunday, presents for Xmas, chocolate for Easter but I have attended Eid feasts and encourage my daughter to make things at nursery for Diwali. I only do the fun bits because I'm an atheist. You really don't get atheism do you?

Don't 'get' atheism? Heck, I used to be the biggest atheist going

If you go to places like Iran where children really are brainwashed and have the state religion shoved down their throats and are even imprisoned, tortured and put to death if they deny it, then you will understand that there's really no danger to your child in having something like grace before meals, or singing Christmas Carols or whatever

I would call grace a 'fun bit'-it will be a child centred one and take less than 1 minute to say. I can't see the harm in showing a DC all religions and cultures -one thing is for sure -they will make up their own mind when older. I can't think of a single adult who says 'I believe x because my mother does'!! (or my school, nursery told me to!)

Right - well back to the original question. I asked the owner and manager, who happened to be at the door, whether the grace that the little boy had said was something that all the children usually did.

The owner, grabbing the wrong end of the stick rather brilliantly, said "yes" and asked if I would like her to write it out so we could do it at home. I thanked her but said as atheists that wasn't really where I was going with this. She said "oh we all worship different gods, I one, the manager another, it's just a way to get the children quiet before food." She really is the loveliest, if a little ditzy, woman and so I couldn't bring myself to say "well that's my point, we don't all worship a god" and I so just let it fly. To give the manager some credit she did at least look a little bit sheepish that I like to think was caused either by a) understanding the unmade point I was raising or b) knowing that parents should be informed about the grace before registering.

Right - off to read DD The Selfish Gene as a bedtime story to counterbalance to all this god-bothering.

As Dave Allen used to say - may your gods go with you.

A nursery is a bit different-they are not generally religious unless they are church run. OP has said that she didn't ask-she assumed. Never assume.

YANBU at all. I wouldn't be happy. I'd expect to have been told that this was their practice too.

Also the fact that one of the children was asked to do it makes it more of an issue for me.

I think the passive acceptance of christian religion as part of culture IS offensive. It's offensive if I say it is, I'm allowed my own views. Plenty would be offended if their child was forbidden from doing something that was part of their religion. I'm an athiest & part of my mindset is that praying to a magic sky man is in a wider context harmful.

But we live in a Christian country where our head of state is also head of the church of England.

These things are part of our culture.

They encourage tolerance, respect and thankfulness.

that respect and tolerance is extended to anyone who asks, I bet if you asked the nursery workers if they would not ask your particular DC to SAY the grace they would agree unreservedly. You could then explain your beliefs to your dc, reminding them that they must still sit quietly through the grace as some families thought it was important.

Non issue really IMHO...

But we live in a Christian country where our head of state is also head of the church of England. And round and round we go. I didn't vote for the Queen, do you? It was a pagan country before it was a Christian country. Why do we have the Church of England and the Queen as it's head? Because an inadequate, misogynist scumbag thought it would be nice to divorce a couple of his wives instead of murdering them. Like he did the others. Fan-bloody-tastic. These things are not part of my culture. <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.ca/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1280&bih=709&tbm=isch&tbnid=bzDSlYTB7I3U6M:&imgrefurl=madmikesamerica.com/2011/09/here-is-why-religion-is-like-a-penis/&docid=fyjuW74Pr2WBGM&imgurl=madmikesamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/religionlikeapenis.jpg&w=720&h=562&ei=cr1jT5PEFIi0iQLunLCiDw&zoom=1" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Here

Take it in the spirit of having a moment to be grateful for things.

But the they are a part of the society and culture you live in MrsT.

How can you extricate the two?

Like you say it's a chicken and egg scenario, you can't have our society without the religion and you can't have the religion without our society, historically and whether you like it or not.

MrsT for elected queen!

Respect & tolerance is most certainly NOT extended to anyone who asks IMHO.

Sarc you clearly think it's a non issue as it accords with YOUR views. To say it's a non-issue does not extend respect to all the posters on here who do see it as an issue for a number of very good reasons . By dismissing it you trivialise their views and assert de facto Christianity. ihave a problem with that.

I can understand that you don't want your dd thanking a God that you don't believe in, but really it's pretty harmless. At worst she will learn to be grateful for the food she is eating and perhaps appreciate that plenty of others aren't do lucky.

I just think the fact that we are a Christian country, is well a fact.

If I went to live in a Muslim country I would epect my children to see Islam being presented as fact and to experience islamic traditions. I would LIKE the opportunity to request they sit out of these, although tbh I'm unsure if I would be allowed to do this in all countries.

And whether or not you are a royalist or republican, the queen is head of state this is another fact (one we have the luxury of arguing against if we see fit, but that doesnt change the fact)

Don't get the link tbh it's not evidence of anything.

It is not a case of going to live in a Muslim country, the UK is MY country too. There WE are not a Christian country. Canada has the Queen as head of state and no state religion.

YANBU OP.

This really really winds me up. I have no problem at all with my DS doing RE when he goes to school, what I have a big problem with is the enforced worship. I don't like christianity being taught in schools as a fact along with english and maths and taking part in religious acts like praying, saying grace, singing hymns and attending sermons is just that.

As a result, I will definitely be withdrawing him from that when the time comes.

And to those saying 'do you celebrate easter/christmas?' - those festivals were not created by christians. They are pagan festivals (ostara and yule) and they are more sensibly celebrating changing in the seasons etc - ie real things. Christians hijacked all that and added in a zombie to boot. I celebrate the pagan festivals so I celebrate christmas (or yule) without any sort of a nod towards jesus.

Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church etc.
I'd be fuming frankly.
Mumbles about atheism not being a belief.

Oh and Mothering Sunday??? Stolen by the christian church from an old roman festival. So not actually an original Christian day either.

I get pretty sick of the "it's harmless" excuse as well. Either it means something in which case don't do it or it doesn't in which case why do it?

And do people genuinely not understand why there are midwinter festivals in lots of religions? It's cold, dark and lean. I like to eat, light candles and be nice to people. Call it Christmas or whatever it's about getting through the crap. A human thing not necessarily a religious thing.

Children are subjected to Christianity by law in schools. Many schools may not do it "right" (example, when I was teaching, I led the daily Act of Worship once a week. I used it as a meditative quiet time with the children, no mention of god at all) but it is a legal requirement.

I have no objection to religious education. I have massive objections to religious instruction. The two are intertwined in schools in NI, so my children are withdrawn.

A minister came into the school at Hallowe'en and told the children about the literal "truth" of the devil.

I asked when the Humanist celebrant would be invited in. That would be "never. Parents would complain."

Grace is the thin end of the wedge.

Mrst I'm afraid you are wrong. The uk is your country (well sort of, the uk isn't a country, but for the purposes of this meh), and it happens to be a Christian one. That doesn't give you less rights, it doesn't mean you have to be a Christian. But it does mean that you can hardly be surprised to discover some (albeit quite gentle) religious observance in the community. The joy is that you have the right to opt out, and the right to teach your children whatever you like and promote your beliefs as fact to them, if you so chose.

The fact that Canada has the queen without the Christianity only proves this is possible, it doesn't change the way things are in the uk.

These facts could be changed, but the fact that they are not being seriously discussed in parliament currently, is down to lack of public will for change.

Crunchyfrog, I'm sorry to hear that a balanced debate was not made available to your children in that instance, IMO it should have been, (unless it's a church school, where I think this kind of thing is less surprising).