To ask the nursery about grace?

[Stangirl]

My DD (2) attends a nursery 2 days a week - since last October. I am very happy with the nursery and love the way the staff are with the kids. DD seems very happy there.

They just had a Mother's Afternoon where the mums were invited in to attend a music and movement session, facepainting, playing, tea with the kids. I went along and it was lovely apart for one thing - one of the children was asked to say grace before the sandwiches and said a few words thanking god. I was shocked by this as I had believed them to be non-religious - teaching and celebrating all festivals etc but not active worshipping. As an avowed atheist I am quite perturbed.

Would you ask them if this is usual and if they are teaching them grace?

"No one is actually asking them to practice it. They are there and they can choose whether to join in or not."

I'm sorry, but that's not acceptable. A younger primary aged child will have very little understanding of what a Christian is, and whether they are one or not. Asking a small child to make an informed choice about this is ridiculous.

"those who think they have the right to police their DCs thoughts."

Should we just leave that to the state then?

The vegetarian analogy is a good one. By your reasoning, vegetarian children should be given a little bit bit of meat at school so that they can experience it. After all, they might want to be meat eaters in later life.

yanbu op. i totally agree with you.

No seeker. By 8yrs old if they themselves wish to opt for the meal choice in the school dinner they should. If they go to someone's house that person can offer them a sausage roll and they are entitled to take it or refuse it-not the parent. Not after about 8yrs old.

They shouldn't be saying to the mother -'do they eat this?' They should be saying to the DC 'do you eat that?' The mother may be a vegetarian-there is nothing to say her DC has to follow.

"By 8yrs old if they themselves wish to opt for the meal choice in the school dinner they should."

But that's not how the 'worshipping choice' works in schools, is it? They get it by default from the age of 4.

I was on the Grace at someone's house thread and kept saying that, as an atheist, I would expect the family to carry on as normal, say Grace and I could choose what to tell my child. My choice would be, sit quietly and be respectful. At someone's home. They would learn different people do things differently, all fine and dandy.

School is a place that I expect my child to learn facts and it is an extension of the State, which is authority in the country. God's existence is a lie, in my opinion, so I don't want my child taught this as fact. Any more than I would expect school to teach flat earth theory or horoscopes as fact. If they read all the children's horoscopes out at assembly every morning, wouldn't you find that odd? I bet more people read their horoscope than attend church regularly. Having worship at school is wrong. I want my child to have a positive experience of school and not feel excluded and different as I did when I had to walk out.

"They shouldn't be saying to the mother -'do they eat this?' They should be saying to the DC 'do you eat that?' The mother may be a vegetarian-there is nothing to say her DC has to follow."

Absolutely. By about 8ish, yes.

But you're saying that up until then, the child should be trying meet to see if they like it!

And in fact, children have NO choice about whether they are at the very least present at Christian worship in schools.

The school gives them no choice (afaik), and it's up to the parents whether they are 'opted out', regardless of their age.

I can't see why not-for example if they go to a party.

Actually that is something I don't really know - if a 4, 6, 8 or 10 year old went up to their teacher and said 'I'm not a Christian, I don't want to be in the room when others are worshipping', what would happen?

By 8yrs old if they themselves wish to opt for the meal choice in the school dinner they should."

But that's not how the 'worshipping choice' works in schools, is it? They get it by default from the age of 4

They have to sit next to others eating meat and 2 veg or ham sandwiches. They don't ban all meat products because some don't eat them!

They would have to ask the parent to exempt them Bonfire-it is all laid down in the Education Act of 1998.

EF, I have a particular faith and am doing my best to bring my children up to know about that faith and to follow its practices. It is not ok for a school to teach another practice to my children. I don't care if that practice is as seemingly innocuous as praying another version of the Our Father or as dreadful (imo) as insisting that my DDs cover their heads or pray separately from the boys.

If this is not what my family does or believes when it comes to religious practice, then I do not think a school has any right to make my small children either participate or feel excluded, any more than a school should impose vegetarianism on them and present it as the only way to live. I went along with the pledge of allegiance through gritted teeth in the US, but I would fight tooth and nail any attempt to have my children choose either to practice any other religion or stand out like sore thumbs because of refusal to.

When families are faced with that 'choice' a horrible message is sent to children of non coE faiths that the CoE is the mainstream and they are outsiders.

8 years old is a really arbitrary age to choose. There is really no age when anyone can be said to come to a definitive answer as to how they see things religion-wise. From the pov of many churches, the age when young people choose to become more committed (or less) can often be the age of Confirmation or Bar/Bat Mitzvah, but even the decision to go through that ceremony doesn't necessarily mean commitment that will last at the same level from then on will result.

As a parent who is bring up my children in a Catholic home, I would expect my children to be respectful of the religious practice of other families, not to expect to be fed whatever meal they fancied, cooked the way I cook it if eating with others, and generally to fit in, but I expect others to be respectful of my way of doing things in my home, and that expectation extends to schools respecting the fact that my children are being taught things that may be at odds with the CoE way of looking at things.

Until the DC is able to cook a non-veg meal for him or herself and clean up afterwards, then what the parent eats is what the child eats.

"They would have to ask the parent to exempt them Bonfire-it is all laid down in the Education Act of 1998."

So it is not their choice, it is their parents' choice?

It is the law Bonfire-it is all quite clear. If you don't like it you actively have to fight it!

exoticfruits - I'm not disputing that it is the law. But it is at odds with your opinion that children should have the 'freedom to choose' with regard to whether or not to worship.

H, this is so silly! Sitting next to ham sandwiches, or honey or corned beef or nutella, is finding out about other sorts of sandwiches is like RE lessons. A schools saying "anybody who doeasn't eat ham sandwiches leave the room now because we are going to eat ham sandwiches together" is like collective worship.

Exotic fruits- you don't give visiting vegetarian children meat, do you?

Until the DC is able to cook a non-veg meal for him or herself and clean up afterwards, then what the parent eats is what the child eats.

They go to houses for tea, they go to parties etc. I put 8yrs because that is the age they start to be out and about. If a vegetarian DC comes to my house to a party I expect him to know by that age what he can eat and not eat and I am not going to act as policeman. If he chooses a sausage I would just pretend not to see.

I understand why it happens- I do know my education law! What I don't understand is why anyonenthinksnit's q goodnidea!

It is absolutely right that it should be the parent's choice and not the child's, and a correct acknowledgement that the parent's choice is what matters -- what is a shame is that the default option is participation.

Not actively, seeker. But in my party scenario where he chooses I am not going to stop him. I will make it quite clear which things are meat and turn a blind eye if he chooses it. The only thing I would police are allergies.

Would that apply to a Muslim child if th sausqg was pork, exotic fruits?

They can choose. It is impossible to force someone to worship!

I bet your DCs are not in the least bothered by the subject. Mine would think I was batty arguing it out!

At 8yrs old I would tell them first seeker and then I am really not going to keep my eye on them the entire time. They are 8yrs old!! They have been told-it is their responsibility.