To ask the nursery about grace?

[Stangirl]

My DD (2) attends a nursery 2 days a week - since last October. I am very happy with the nursery and love the way the staff are with the kids. DD seems very happy there.

They just had a Mother's Afternoon where the mums were invited in to attend a music and movement session, facepainting, playing, tea with the kids. I went along and it was lovely apart for one thing - one of the children was asked to say grace before the sandwiches and said a few words thanking god. I was shocked by this as I had believed them to be non-religious - teaching and celebrating all festivals etc but not active worshipping. As an avowed atheist I am quite perturbed.

Would you ask them if this is usual and if they are teaching them grace?

RosemaryAndThyme - it seems that one of the main reasons that some faith schools have better academic records is because their discriminatory admissions policies favour middle class families:

Guardian article - Church schools shun poorest pupils

From this article:
"Our analysis found some particularly egregious examples of schools ? both Catholic and CofE ? that take far fewer numbers of pupils eligible for free school meals than is representative of their area.

In St John's Church of England primary in Croydon, south London, just 7% of pupils are eligible for free school meals, compared with 29% across the postcode and 24% across the local authority.

Meanwhile, at St James's Catholic primary school in Richmond, south-west London, only 1% of pupils are eligible for free school meals, compared with 10% across the postcode and local authority."

Aargh once again I have no issue with children being taught about religion just in their being asked to participate. Is it really so difficult to understand?

MrsTP - I got out of assembly for six years by labelling myself staunchly atheist. I sat around a classroom in the mornings, eating bacon sarnies with the catholic and jewish girls. Well, the jews didn't have bacon obv

Gosh Bonfire that doesn't sound very inclusive.

Garlic me too. My best (Jewish) friend used to walk out and I used to follow her. Only ones in the school so it was not pleasant and no bacon sarnies.

Oh, sorry for your younger self :( At my school, it was a brilliant start to the day!

Maybe if children were being asked to participate in or opt for exclusion from non-Christian religious activities the issue would become clearer? Would non-Muslims be ok with having their children participate in Muslim prayer? Would non-Catholics be ok if their children were required to say the Angelus every noon? How about having your British child put his or her hand over heart and recite:
'I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all'.

Another Guardian article here, if anyone is interested:

How many children go to faith schools?

"England's faith state schools are on average failing to mirror their local communities by shunning the poorest pupils in their area, an analysis by the Guardian of the latest government figures shows.

The Roman Catholic Church, which has repeatedly insisted that its schools are "inclusive", comes out as particularly unrepresentative of the local communities it serves. Three-quarters of Catholic primary and secondary schools have a more affluent mix of pupils than their local area.

I shall have a bacon sarnie today to make up for it.

Whenever atheists mention Muslim prayer or similar the answer is always either they would be happy to participate if they lived in a Muslim country or that that would opt their children out. Easy to say when it's someone else's child being bullied for being different.

Yes, the opting out or 'making a fuss' option is not a nice one. We shouldn't have to 'make a fuss'. I don't want my family being judged by anyone on a matter that is none of their business, ie whether or not we 'do' Christian worship.

OK, rational idea!

According to Wiki, 76.8% of the population are religious.

So, if we're having prayers

71% of the time make them Christian
2.7% of the time make the Muslim
1% of the time Hindu
0.6 and 0.3% Sikh and Jewish

And the remaining time, they can all chant "There's probably no god, so stop worrying about it."

In the school year, that means 134 days of Christian prayer, 5 of Muslim, about 2 Hindu, 1 each for the others and 47 of atheism.

Everyone happy? Good. (PS, failed maths twice, feel free to judge.)

Haven't checked your arithmetic, but I like your plan!

Math - re your can of worms: hinduism teaches tolerance; islam doesn't. I guess christianity's still moving towards the tolerant end of the scale (theologies tend to mellow as they age.)

Given that some people like collective worship and some parents don't - why don't parents just choose the schools that align with their view-point ?

There are many non-faith schools parents can send their children to

I would say that this is the main problem-people simply don't understand that schools are non denominational, some don't even understand the term. It doesn't matter how many times it is aired, you always get people who think there are secular schools. If your DCs never discuss assemblies, and mine didn't, the parent can be blithely unaware-or they assume it is like assemblies when they were at school. I wonder how many people have an accurate picture of what happens in their own DCs assembly.

Well I didn't know that, whats' the point of a C of E school then (apart from the funding bit) - surely voluntary aided, free schools, and acadamies don't have to do this do they ? or maybe having the Christian bit in assembly means they can devote the RE lessons to covering other religions and therefore get a bit of everything covered ?

I don't mean to pick on you RosemaryandThyme, but you are typical of many, you have no idea of the various education acts -and the school haven't made it plain.

Some people can't choose a school that isn't a church school. The first schools were church schools and in 1870 Board Schools filled in the gaps-they didn't put one where there were already schools.
There can be very little difference-it depends on the Head and the way they interpret the law.

There might be far more wish for change if people realised that their DC didn't attend a secular school

I learned something about god last week....I learned that when some people think that god is talking to them, you can tape god's half of the conversation with a microphone attached to the larynx. Also you can trigger an experience of this nature by using moving magnets to produce an electric current in certain parts of the brain.

I do not think it is the case that science has nothing to say on the topic of god. I think science has a great deal to say. It says that god is a product of human brains. But it's worth remembering that lots of other worthwhile things are also the products of the human brain...like love. So not all bad on average.

I do realise that my last post has nothing to do with the op. I am just trying to spread a little enlightenment.

I think the best thing we can teach our children is to be rationalists. If they experience god then they should be free to express that as they wish, and we should make the available options known to them.

However brainwashing in any form is a Bad Thing.

So there are no schools in the UK where under 16's are educated that escape having to have Christian assemblies ?

I'm still thinking that the academies, the voluntary aided schools, some of the free schools and a jolly lot of the bog standard secondaries really are not in practice having these assemblies - gatherings of the school where they talk about sports day and things, but really not a sniff of christianity, a few carols and the odd prayer at christmas but certainly no brain-washing, not on the christianity side anyway, possibly catholics or others but not your regular CofE stuff.

As for the argument that more middle-class folks go to the faith schools its a bit chickena and egg, perhaps a disciplined life leads to higher wealth.

exotic - I think you absolutely right that most parents have no idea that there is no such thing as a secular school. I didn't know this. And actually I hate the fact that this is so.

OTOH, the way "collective worship" is interpreted, especially by inner-city schools like mine is probably not too scary for atheists or people of non-Christian faiths.

People should check, though .....

OJ are you following me around? Or am I following you...

Mwah hah hah

There is a difference between having respect and being respectful.

I agree that respect has to be earned. However, even if someone hasn't earned my respect, that doesn't mean I won't be (or shouldn't be) respectful towards them.

Respect may be earned, but being respectful is just common decency.

entropygirl - thanks from me! I love learning stuff about neurology, psychology and mythology. You've just stimulated all three of my 'ologies' and sent me on a fascinating Web trawl :)

So there are no schools in the UK where under 16's are educated that escape having to have Christian assemblies ?

Not state. I think that you are confused on voluntary aided they are generally C of E voluntary aided.

Sorry-not clear-there are no state schools that escape it. I think that you will find that a lot of secondary school manage not simply from being too big and not having room. Primary schools have room.

YANBU there is no need for "god" to be involved!

At DD's nursery they say grace "Thank you for the food we eat and the friends we share it with". Lovely - nuff said!