To ask the nursery about grace?

[Stangirl]

My DD (2) attends a nursery 2 days a week - since last October. I am very happy with the nursery and love the way the staff are with the kids. DD seems very happy there.

They just had a Mother's Afternoon where the mums were invited in to attend a music and movement session, facepainting, playing, tea with the kids. I went along and it was lovely apart for one thing - one of the children was asked to say grace before the sandwiches and said a few words thanking god. I was shocked by this as I had believed them to be non-religious - teaching and celebrating all festivals etc but not active worshipping. As an avowed atheist I am quite perturbed.

Would you ask them if this is usual and if they are teaching them grace?

It seems strange to me that Christians are so worried about the thought of their children being in a secular atmosphere for 6 hours a day. Do they think they will "catch" atheism, or something?

It seems strange to me that atheists are so worried about the thought of their children being in religious atmosphere for 6 hours a day. Do they think they will "catch" religion (be brainwashed) or something?

exotic I imagine seeker was responding to the post immediately above:

"It seems strange to me why atheists worry about minor religious observance like saying grace. It seems similar to homophobic people worrying about their children being 'taught' homosexuality at school. Your children are not going to catch religion by saying grace. Really."

HalfPastWine

Yes. I am worried that my children will be influenced. Ask a Jesuit "give me a child for the first 7 years and I'll give you the man." There's a reason RC churches start the Sacrements so early (6 year olds making their First Confession, that was last week here.)

I do not want my children to be taught something as a literal truth. I am happy for them to learn about Christianity, I am not even remotely happy for them to take part in its rituals and observances.

It should not be happening.

(DD is terribly worried about Hell and me going there. She's 8. Direct result of an idiot preacher giving them the literal truth of the Devil, hellfire and brimstone, the lot in school. WTF should that man be allowed access to my kids? Oh yes, religious tolerance. Fuck off.)

So a little tolerance of diversity was too much to ask for, then?

I would have no issue with my child being taught the quran or any other religious text. I would also have no problem with my child being taught secular beliefs. It is for them to decide, not for me.

I will teach them what I believe and why I believe if, but their path is up to them.

Crunchy I was educated at a Catholic school and now, as an adult I don't attend mass, I believe in sex before marriage, agree with homosexuality, contraception. My religious teaching taught me to question it and other religions and to question life in general.

I am worried that my children will be influenced I respect your request that you don't want your children to be surrounded by faith at school however you worry needlessly, children are not brainwashed and will learn to question their teaching on religion as they do everything else.

ThisIsANickname - how about them being asked to worship other gods? Or be told by a teacher that 'there is no god'?

HalfPastWine - they might change their minds as adults, but that doesn't stop them having nightmares about Hell in the meantime though, does it?

I am really upset that worrying and frightening aspects of Christianity are preached in any school, I am realising that I have been rather naive, I thought even the most devout CofE schools would have kept things sort of simple and sweet, none fo the hell-fire and brimstone side at all ever.

Will ask about this at parents eveing next week as like you I would as least want to know in advance what they plan.

If imaginary beings get you all peturbed are you planning to ban all mention of Santa and The Tooth Fairy as well?

they might change their minds as adults, but that doesn't stop them having nightmares about Hell in the meantime though, does it?

Seriously? If you are speaking from experience then there is a problem at the school in question and how they are teaching. Where religion is taught properly this would not happen.

RosemaryandThyme just to clarify, my children do not attend a faith school. It's an Integrated State School.

There are visiting ministers, the school prepares for the RC children's sacraments and the RE curriculum is entirely Christian in nature.

HalfPastWine I don't mind them being taught about faiths. Most of their friends are RC, (we're in a 70/30 RC/other area) and I will take them along to the First Communion etc. I mind them being expected to join in, and that Christianity is presented as literal truth in school.

They are not expected to be atheist either. I expect them to find their own path.

feckless if they're being asked to worship Santa and pray to the Tooth Fairy, then yes please.

RosemaryAndThyme - the thing is, I bet no schools will overtly have on the curriculum things like 'Thursday - learn about Hell in RE and make sure the fear of God is put into the kids'.

But to be fair, it's hard to even tell the story of Easter without going into a few gruesome details, and 'dead Jesus'. It's hard to know what very young, or even slightly older, children are going to make of stories like that, so it's important that they are handled very sensitively.

I think that how religion is taught in school is massively different to how it was taught in the past. I have older relatives who were taught by nuns and things were really strict so I can see how some people may get a perception of religion and worship being rammed down people's throats. These days however, even in Catholic schools there is a more gentle approach, acceptance and teaching of all religions. There has to be, there should be.

HalfPastWine - do you know that for a fact, about EVERY school?

It seems to me that there's much more scope for things being disturbing / scary if the children are taught them as absolute fact.

eg " 'Dead Jesus' is up there in the sky, looking down on you and he can see you all the time" might well be how an impressionable four or five year old perceives things. Why would you want that in a child's head?

@ CrunchyFrog That was aimed at the OP not you, mate ...

I'd be pissed as well if my tiddlers were getting the hellfire version at school, although they seem quite capable of terrifying themselves without outside assistance ... DS1 was convinced that The Eater Of Souls lived in the garage ( behind the mower and next to the battery-charger, apparently ) and DS2 used to wake me up in the small hours so I could search his room for poison-arrow frogs. To be honest Ol' Nick would be preferable, at least he'd be easy to spot!

BonfireofKleenex that's my point, we weren't taught that they were 'absolute fact'. We were taught to question and translate how these teaching work in everyday life. Any school that doesn't encourage questioning isn't teaching it properly.

BonfireOfKleenex You cannot force anyone to worship, not even if you require them be put through the motions.

When I was a child, I got immersed in several different cultures and religions including mormonism, jehovah's witness, judaism and atheism. And yes, I was expected to participate in their traditions even if I didn't believe because it was respectful to do so. And yet, here I sit, not mormon, jehovah's witness or jewish.

Further, I want my child to ask questions. If they get told that there is no God, I want them to say "Why do you think that?" I can't get angry at someone saying that to me or my child because it seems such a silly thing to get angry over. It would be (to me) like someone trying to convince my child that there is no oxygen.

It is not my job to police what other people say and do around my child. It is my job to teach them how to incorporate all this new information and decide for themselves.

"You cannot force anyone to worship, not even if you require them be put through the motions. "

Why should anybody be required to be put through the motions though?

BonfireOfKleenex I didn't say they should. I only said "even if" that was the case.
I don't think that anyone should be forced to be put through the motions. Nor do I think they should be denied the opportunity because of the beliefs of their parents.

Just thought I'd pop in to say, as is necessary every hundred posts or so on these threads, nobody is objecting to children being taught about Christianity. I, andni think others ar objecting to is children being asked to practice Christianity as past of th lifenof a non faith state school. For the life of me I just cannot see why this is unreasonable or even up for debate. And nobody has yet been ablest explain why it's a good idea for children from non Christian or no faith families to have to be nominal Christians in order to fully participate in the lifenof a non faith state school.

I, andni think others ar objecting to is children being asked to practice Christianity as past of th lifenof a non faith state school.

They may, if they are, 'asked' to practice it. They are not forced to practice it. No one can be forced to practice any religion. Not in this country anyway.

I would have no issue with my child being taught the quran or any other religious text. I would also have no problem with my child being taught secular beliefs. It is for them to decide, not for me.

The basis of all religious texts is that they are the absolute truth. There is a big difference between being 'taught the Quran' and 'taught about the Quran'. If you send your child to a Madrassa or to a Muslim your child will be taught to be a Muslim child, to live according to the dictates of the Islamic faith, and that the Muslim religion is objective truth.

There is no such thing as a 'secular belief' that children would be taught in school, unless you mean civics.

'...nobody has yet been able to explain why it's a good idea for children from non Christian or no faith families to have to be nominal Christians in order to fully participate in the life of a non faith state school.'

This is the issue, in a nutshell. Even as a Catholic, I do not see why my children should be forced to be nominal protestants if a CoE or state school was the only option for them, in order to participate with their peers in all of the activities of the school. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be for parents who are not Christian to see this wedge being put between their children and their classmates, or between their children and them. It smacks of the era when all non-conformists and Catholics had to be married in CoE churches in order for their marriages to be considered legal.

"They may, if they are, 'asked' to practice it. They are not forced to practice it. No one can be forced to practice any religion. Not in this country anyway."

So how is the 'choice not to worship' presented at school to a class of four year olds then?

No one is actually asking them to practice it. They are there and they can choose whether to join in or not.

You keep asking the same question, seeker. I would say that it goes back to the 1870 Education Act. If people want change they have to make it happen. It needs another Act of Parliament-it can't just fizzle out.

waves at exoticfruits> You need a medal for sticking it out on this thread

I am just silly, hiddenhome and should sit on my hands and not get involved! You will find me on two sort of threads, mainly having a go at over protective parents who won't let their DCs physically do things and this sort, which is just as bad IMO, those who think they have the right to police their DCs thoughts.

It is not my job to police what other people say and do around my child. It is my job to teach them how to incorporate all this new information and decide for themselves.

I agree wholeheartedly, ThisisaNickname-it is my one and only point.

If my parents are vegetarians, who think that eating animals is wrong, of course they are perfectly right to not to give me meat to eat and keep me on a purely vegetarian diet-HOWEVER-right from the start they need to bear in mind that I may decide (by about 8yrs) that I see nothing wrong in eating animals and I am going to eat meat. Furthermore if I wish to become a farmer producing beef cattle, or a chef, or a butcher they have no need to take it personally and there is no need to let it alter our relationship.

I can't remember who said it, but earlier someone was actually fuming if someone introduced a concept to their DC that hadn't been sanctioned by her. Really?! Why? At what age is she going to credit her DC with some intelligence and trust them to think for themselves?