To ask the nursery about grace?

[Stangirl]

My DD (2) attends a nursery 2 days a week - since last October. I am very happy with the nursery and love the way the staff are with the kids. DD seems very happy there.

They just had a Mother's Afternoon where the mums were invited in to attend a music and movement session, facepainting, playing, tea with the kids. I went along and it was lovely apart for one thing - one of the children was asked to say grace before the sandwiches and said a few words thanking god. I was shocked by this as I had believed them to be non-religious - teaching and celebrating all festivals etc but not active worshipping. As an avowed atheist I am quite perturbed.

Would you ask them if this is usual and if they are teaching them grace?

Why should there be respectful silence for prayer?

Because we should be mindful of other people. I went into a Chinese temple recently and we were told not to take photographs and to be quiet for those praying.
Often people praying are in some sort of distress. I can't really believe that you think it is OK that someone is making a prayer because their mother is in intensive care and you can just totally ignore it crunchyfrog.

If you visit a church-you show respect-there may well be people in quiet contemplation.

I hate to think we have lost all sensitivity to other people and it is just me, me, me.

That's not what we're talking about here.

We're talking about children making routine prayers.

OR being told to "respect" the prayers and their content.

The intensive care thing you just threw in there - that's a straw man. If someone's in distress, you do whatever you can to ease it.

Prayer is not intrinsically deserving of respect.

Oh, also, this: "general moaning, to people who dont matter, won't make changes."

Innaccurate. We all matter, we all have a vote. "general moaning" might just make a few people look at the status quo in a new way.

However Crunchyfrog-moaning on MN doesn't make any difference. You do need to actively campaign. How many people even try in their own school playground? I have never come across any.

I do think that DCs should be taught to respect others-not that they only respect them if they think it a good reason.

So they should respect beliefs that are racist, homophobic and misogynist?

"moaning" on MN does make a difference. I have learnt a lot from women "moaning" on MN.

Is it only "moaning" if you disagree with the content?

As it happens, I do actively campaign. I am part of the NI humanist movement and am working on getting an education outreach section established. Yay me!

You are being silly! You respect people practising a main stream religion.

I suppose you learn something from others moaning-but it is generally the same people and the majority never come on these threads at all.

I always give a link to the secular society. I doubt whether many join.
It all goes quiet-there will be another thread around Easter-particularly if people don't like the Good Friday story- and then it will all go quiet again. Meanwhile assemblies continue -the religious content depending on the Head and the way they interpret the law.

Good for you if you do campaign-I think you are the minority. The majority would make changes.

No. I don't respect people practising a mainstream religion that in my opinion supports and perpetuates misogyny, homophobia and racism.

I don't respect their beliefs. I don't respect their right to pray or preach anywhere other than on their own property. I don't respect their right to restrict my bodily integrity, and I certainly do not respect their state-given right to impose their beliefs upon the children of others.

Call it silly if you want. But try thinking it through.

"I suppose you learn something from others moaning-but it is generally the same people and the majority never come on these threads at all. "

Don't underestimate the power of social media to alter attitudes - all MN threads have FAR more lurkers than posters.

These threads tend to start out with a post like the OPs - and they initially get shouted down by a load of people saying things like 'get a life', 'what's the problem?'. IMO many of the 'get a lifers' clearly haven't ever given the issue more than a moment's thought, hopefully threads like these will change that.

I have thought it through and it is a very different Christianity from my understanding of it. We are all different. There is no reason why my interpretation should be the same as yours, why mine should be the same as my mothers or why my DCs should be the same as mine or why your DCs should be the same as yours.
When I went into the Chinese temple, I had no idea what beliefs they follow or even which religion it was. The method of prayer, which seemed to involve rapid short backward and forward movement, seemed very strange. However I respected their right to do it without me disturbing it. Admittedly, I chose to go into their place of worship, but I would have respected it had I come across it on the street.

A lot of lurkers can actually agree with the other side too! I have had a hard time on some threads and had personal emails from people who agree with me- but won't say so on the thread-they don't want the flack.

Collective worship would be long gone if a huge majority of parents didn't want it.

exoticfruits - yes of course lurkers won't all be of the same opinion (I'm just assuming that obviously the argument that I think is right will be more persuasive )

A shame that people don't post if they feel they have something to say though.

"Collective worship would be long gone if a huge majority of parents didn't want it."

I don't agree that a 'huge majority' want collective worship in schools. Schools don't go out of their way to advertise that this is what they do - it's just inaccurate to assume that parents know and approve of all that goes on.

And re the question of whether it's important that children grow up having the same faith (or lack of faith) as their parents, well I suppose that depends. In some instances it might well cause sadness and conflict, especially if one of the parties was very devout.

I would personally be a bit sad if my DC turned out to be a right-wing Christian evangelist type, or spent their weekends knocking on doors trying to convert people to be Jehovas Witnesses, so in that sense it would matter to me I suppose, yes. Not saying that worship in school assemblies would be a likely 'cause' of this happening, though.

Exotic,

I am sorry to say, but this attitude is very very annoying for me as a atheist!

What I can't understand is why it matters. I particularly don't like the idea that everything is censored by the parent and their DC is only allowed to hear what they want them to hear. If they are to make a choice (which they will) they need to know the options. I would trust the DC-if you were not brainwashed as a DC why assume that your DC will be-don't you credit them with any intelligence?

The problems is, that Christians will always wheel out the "what harm can it do - you turned into an atheist, so will your child" argument. If there is no harm in it, and it is so unassuming, then why do you all fight so hard to keep it?

Your argument can be turned upside-down to justify having a secular schooling system. What harm would a Christian family's child face if they went to a secular school and only had their religion with their family (and their chosen church)? The answer is: there would be no harm done at all.

However, there are loads of benefits, not least the fact that it sends a clear message to all the children in this country that they are all the same, and no-one needs to be taken to a different room during assembly because they are "different". Also, I wouldn't have to tell my DCs that their teachers are wrong about there being a god (it is very confusing for a child to understand why only some of what their teachers say is actually true.

If you child was taught that 10+10=1, you would be bashing down the door. But somehow it is acceptable to make kids pray. FFS!

Please all sign this e-petition to help force the debate on secular schooling. I HATE the fact that my DC are taught that god made the animals. No he doesn't exist, the animals evolved! epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/1617

Thing is, all superstitions should be treated exactly alike. Otherwise you are institutionalising discrimination. A belief in horoscopes is no more or less valid than a belief in Islam or Shinto. So you either accept it as a matter of individual choice that people can deal with in their own time, or you waste hours of everyone else's time accommodating all the different superstitions in every sphere of public life.

And don't come up with the tired old crap about the Christian mythology being the defining symbol of Britishness; the society we have in the UK is influenced as much by Norse and Roman and Celtic superstition as Christian superstition, and democracy started in ancient Greece, which had a pantheon of deities totally unconnected with Christianity at the time (and probably ignored by many of the population as well). THe predominate values of a civillised society - kindness, fairness, co-operation etc, are human values, not passed down by some invisible flying fairy.

Ria My experience tallies with exotics. the primary school which my dd attends- they are not taught god as a fact. My dd1 is in Yr2. They were taught about dinosaurs and evolution in Yr1, and I know the teacher had to contend with a couple of Christian children debating with her, that god made the animals!

The Muslims in the school outnumber the Christians, there is also a sizable Sikh representation. This may have an impact on why they dont teach God as fact? I dont know the religious thoughts of the Head Teacher. She is great. I imagine she believes, like the rest of us that it is not appropriate in a religious setting of small impressionable people who are trying to understand the world?

They do learn about different religions and have lots of celebrations. everyone can opt in or out of anything/everything. This is good I think, no one really feels left out-it is not always a majority taking part and it is not always the same kids not taking part. For example,DD chose this year not to go to the boring Carol Service at the church but to stay behind with some of the Muslim children to watch a DVD

Given that some people like collective worship and some parents don't - why don't parents just choose the schools that align with their view-point ?

There are many non-faith schools parents can send their children to.

Problem only arises if parents want all the good stuff many faith schools offer, good academic record, better disciplined children, higher levels of pastrol care, but none of the effort of commiting to a Christian life.

Rather than sign a petition - vote with your feet and move your kids.

"Given that some people like collective worship and some parents don't - why don't parents just choose the schools that align with their view-point ?

There are many non-faith schools parents can send their children to."

There are non faith schools. But all state schools are obliged by law to have broadly Christian assemblies.

Well I didn't know that, whats' the point of a C of E school then (apart from the funding bit) - surely voluntary aided, free schools, and acadamies don't have to do this do they ? or maybe having the Christian bit in assembly means they can devote the RE lessons to covering other religions and therefore get a bit of everything covered ?

Still don't understand the intolerance on this thread - I tolerate your right to atheism, it would be nice if you reciprocated.

Well, I'm off to pray to my sky fairy for tolerance for SolidGoldBrass :o

The reason most people don't object to collective worship is because most people don't know it is supposed to be in ALL schools not just religious ones. There are always loads of people on these threads who don't know that. They ask us to move our children. TO WHERE? I can't home school and that is the only option except for a school with collective worship. Do people really think this is fair? I find it hard to believe.

My middle school (1960s) taught all religions alongside mythologies. We had the usual morning assembly, but in class the bible stuff was taught in exactly the same way as ancient Greek mythology and the Hindu pantheon. I'm wondering, for the first time, if that explains my general lack of angst about other people's religions.

The bible underpins so much of our language and custom, a child who'd been effectively shielded from it would have some pretty big holes in their cultural integration. How do you explain hot cross buns to such a child?

I had left this thread, but suddenly remembered the few times people have asked me to say grace as a guest in their house. I do it without mentioning god

The way to find out if parents really support schools that have a religious component or schools that are run by a particular religion is to have them pay fees as in the US, where public schools are free and all religious-run schools whether Catholic parish or Jewish or Lutheran schools or Christian fundamentalist are supported entirely by fees and fundraising.

"Given that some people like collective worship and some parents don't - why don't parents just choose the schools that align with their view-point ?"

Not only is there no schools that don't do this, but sometimes you only really have one school to choose from. I grew up in a village that had one school and it was CofE. The kids from the neighbouring village were bussed there so there was no different choice in the next village either.

I think children of Hindu families tend to integrate pretty well in western society. In fact, I think they integrate better than some Muslim children do.