To ask the nursery about grace?

[Stangirl]

My DD (2) attends a nursery 2 days a week - since last October. I am very happy with the nursery and love the way the staff are with the kids. DD seems very happy there.

They just had a Mother's Afternoon where the mums were invited in to attend a music and movement session, facepainting, playing, tea with the kids. I went along and it was lovely apart for one thing - one of the children was asked to say grace before the sandwiches and said a few words thanking god. I was shocked by this as I had believed them to be non-religious - teaching and celebrating all festivals etc but not active worshipping. As an avowed atheist I am quite perturbed.

Would you ask them if this is usual and if they are teaching them grace?

I would actually think secularism is what will keep the world ticking. and and

It seems that the churches cottoned on a while ago to the fact that the (disciminatory) school selection system is one of the few things that gets bums on seats these days.

Now that people are less likely to be bullied into it by societal pressure and 'the fear of God'.

Yup Bonfire. My thoughts exactly

"This is the problem. Your mother has no right to decide your beliefs. She can decide for herself-beyond that nothing. The same for any parent. DCs are not possessions."

exoticfruits - do you really think a parent who doesn't want their child taught Christianity as fact (regardless of the family position on faith) is some sort of controlling despot who thinks of their child as a possession? That seems to be what you are implying here.

Children aren't born with faith, they only get it from other people.

A parent not wanting faith push upon their child is merely keeping their child the way god made them as they were born.

I don't believe that DCs are taught Christianity as a fact-unless they are at a church school, when it shouldn't come as a surprise.
I just think that parents should look at their baby and realise they are a person in their own right-not an extension of them. I can't see any reason why they should think the same. My mother is free to think whatever she likes-but so am I-and they don't have to match! And we can still have a wonderfully loving, close relationship.

You can say, or do, what you like and one thing is for certain-your DC will decide for themselves as they grow up. You can't make decisions if you don't know the choices and they have been kept from you by a parent who doesn't want you to know them.

exoticfruits - I think you're contradicting yourself a bit there - you seem to be saying on one hand parents can have no influence over what their DC end up believing, and on the other "You can't make decisions if you don't know the choices and they have been kept from you by a parent who doesn't want you to know them".

Obviously parental beliefs are going to have an influence on what children believe - a child of Muslim parents is more likely to end up with Muslim beliefs than Buddhist ones, and so on.

But I do think that it should be a child's parents, rather than the state, who give a child their first lessons in 'philosophy of life', if you like.

The state is of course perfectly welcome to educate the child about philosophies of life - when the child is old enough to have an understanding of them.

This sort of thing is always about privilege, though. The people who have bought into the Christian myth brand are very keen to bang on about how nice and harmless it is for small children to be told to participate in the rituals of that particular brand, but never very happy at the idea of small children being made to participate in the rituals of the other brands or indeed to be told that plenty of people know it's a load of old cock anyway and don't engage in any of this imaginary-friend stuff and are still fine without it.

I'm curious if anyone shares exoticfruits experience that state schools no longer tell children god is fact? I don't mean to disbelieve exotic, it just isn't what I've seen, so can anyone add their own anecdata?

Ria - my experience is that schools teach god-as-wishy-washy-fact and this underpins both collective worship and RE lessons.

By this I mean something like "religions are human beings way of describing and connecting with the divine creator. No one religion has a monopoly on the truth, they are all different facets of this truth". In schools that are more White British there tend to be less emphasis on this multifaith generic god and more on the Christian brand -as- broadly-truthful.

Isn't there a collective act of worship in schools? How is that not treating God's existence as fact? I know some schools try hard to get round this but still.

It would be damn difficult to bring a child up anywhere without their coming into regular contact with religious rituals & concepts. A parent, whose religious ideas differ from the cultural norm, can teach their child to view it from a different perspective. But that's about it, surely?

Once again we're back to the difference between learning about religion and participating in religion. I have no issue with DD learning about it.

(have only read through page 8 so forgive me if I have sinned the sin of repeating someone)

Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps having to sit through (and participate) in Christian worship and prayers when they were kids is why so many atheists are adamant that their children shouldn't have to? Perhaps even that is why so many find the idea repulsive even at a level that Christians find small and insignificant amounts because they remember how they felt to be forced to attend or participate in religious practise.

In my case that's not why.

I don't like it because it presents being a Christian as the norm and not being as the "op out"- why should the default position be Christianity?

And I really don't understand why education is the only state funded service that you have to be at least a nominal Christian to fully participate in.

Oh and I am very thankful that the state schools here can't teach any religion as fact. I like the way our primary school deals with it. In Kindergarten (like reception or yr1) the teacher asked for families to share a belief or custom that was important to their family during the winter holidays. All family were welcome to do so so long as they presented it as a 'this is what we do/believe". Some shared about the special cookies they baked or going up to the snow. One family shared about Hannukah, one about Christmas... I forget what else.

My children were taught about the Christian god as fact at a community primary school which in no way advertised that religion was a part of the agenda. The head was we think just very good friends with a local vicar, and he came in and did lots of assemblies. Plus dd's much loved teacher in reception and year 1 told her that god created the world and that we 'weren't made from monkeys' (she was six and we don't really know what she was actually told, but that's the message she came home with, and she was then very unhappy when her dad put her right somewhat sharply). When the head retired the vicar no longer visited the school, showing how random these things can be.

I was brought up a Catholic, went to Catholic primary school, took my confirmation etc and then as a young adult realised that there was in fact nothing 'out there', lost my faith and found it changed my life not at all. My big sister and lovely BIL are both evangelical Christians (BIL about to be ordained, my sister is a chaplin). I think that organised religion is actually quite toxic, although I recognise that personal faith can be incredibly important to people.

I'd be very unhappy about the OP's experience, partly because the only people I know who practice grace are quite evangelical, so I'd doubt that it was just a little prayer, and was in fact much more pervasive.

When I was doing teacher training in one school Seeker, there were a group of children that were all from one religion (I think it was JWs). They were excluded from the part of assembly that was religious and parents took it in turn to do an activity with the children that aligned more with their faith. The school provided a room to do it. There were enough kids in one school that I'm guessing that none of them felt like they were missing out.

Problem is, atheists tend to be a very disorganised bunch with not a whole lot in common other than the lack of belief in any gods.

It's not the point that the cb seen exceluded from assembly are having a nice time. It's that they aree excluded at all from part of the day at a non faith state school. Why should they be? As I said, why should Christianity be the norm and non Christianity be the opt out? What sort of message does that send? Imagine the outrage if you had to pray before you had your appendix out in an NHS hospital! Or even to just sit respectfully why others do?

You are probably right about the problem, HopandSkip.

They are not actively doing anything. I was quite shocked by the article and yet I can't see that it bothered most people.It was almost full page, near the front of the paper and yet, by 11pm last night, only 3 people had posted a comment.

exoticfruits - I think you're contradicting yourself a bit there - you seem to be saying on one hand parents can have no influence over what their DC end up believing, and on the other "You can't make decisions if you don't know the choices and they have been kept from you by a parent who doesn't want you to know them"

Of course parents influence-you bring up your DC according to your personal philosophy. If you are C of E you will most likely have a christening, send to Sunday school, take to church etc. However, as you look at your baby you should realise that they still have a free choice as they get older. They may end up a Christian, but convert to Catholicism or get baptised as a Baptist they may become a Muslim or they may simply reject the idea of any God.

What I can't understand is why it matters. I particularly don't like the idea that everything is censored by the parent and their DC is only allowed to hear what they want them to hear. If they are to make a choice (which they will) they need to know the options. I would trust the DC-if you were not brainwashed as a DC why assume that your DC will be-don't you credit them with any intelligence?

I think that everyone, parents and teachers should firmly put 'I believe' in front and not present anything as facts when they are not. No one can prove it one way or the other. It is a matter of faith and faith is personal.

This is why I am against setting up more church schools to 'fight aggressive secularism'-children shouldn't be used in this way.

"If they are to make a choice (which they will) they need to know the options."

1. It seems that most atheists are fine with their children knowing the round abouts of different faiths. It is the practising they get pissy about.

2. You'd have to be pretty oblivious to not know about Christianity in England by the time you have lived there 16 years (with or without the school's help). You can't walk two paces without tripping over a church for one.

If people wanted to pray before they had their appendix out, seeker, I would assume that you would either be quiet and respectful, while they did it, or go out into a different room. You wouldn't stop them or make a lot of noise-neither would you be forced to take part.
It is no secret that schools have assemblies and DCs can remain respectfully silent or go elsewhere-they are not forced to take part.
If you want this to end you have to actively fight for it-behind the scenes. General moaning, to people who don't matter , won't make changes.

I think that you can be 16yrs and know nothing about C of E. People get shocked because in their daily life they don't realise we are a Christian country-it comes as a shock with school.

Possibly because "we" are a "Christian" country in a purely nominal sense?

Even here in NI, where there is a far far heavier Christian bias, many of the people who attend church purely for the hatch/ match/ dispatch ceremonies are culturally Christian only.

Why should there be respectful silence for prayer?