To ask the nursery about grace?

[Stangirl]

My DD (2) attends a nursery 2 days a week - since last October. I am very happy with the nursery and love the way the staff are with the kids. DD seems very happy there.

They just had a Mother's Afternoon where the mums were invited in to attend a music and movement session, facepainting, playing, tea with the kids. I went along and it was lovely apart for one thing - one of the children was asked to say grace before the sandwiches and said a few words thanking god. I was shocked by this as I had believed them to be non-religious - teaching and celebrating all festivals etc but not active worshipping. As an avowed atheist I am quite perturbed.

Would you ask them if this is usual and if they are teaching them grace?

I'm a Christian. I was brought up as a Christian, strayed away from it, spent a few years exploring other options before coming back to Christianity. For me it works and is very important. I'm bringing my children up to be Christians - bedtime prayers, thanking God for things, etc. If they grow up to reject Christianity then, while I will be sad as it has played such an important role in my life, I will love them and support them in whatever they choose.

However, I do not believe that a school/nursery should be carrying out religious instruction. It is my choice to be a Christian and my 'job' to teach my children my beliefs. That is not the job of a teacher. Teachers are there to academically educate my children. I am here to educate my children in morals, the right way to behave, treat others, etc.

I live in France where the state and religion are totally separate. You can choose to send your child to a Catholic school or a state school. If you choose a state school then there will be no religious practices. Even the name of the school has to be 'neutral'.

This is how it should be imo. I have chosen to be a Christian and I expect to be respected for my choice. That works the other way as well for me. If someone has chosen not to be a Christian/be an atheist then they deserve respect for that choice too. I wouldn't like my child to be taught by someone that there is no God, so why should someone who doesn't believe in God have their child taught that there is a God? It isn't the role of the school to do this. It is the role of the family.

I do take offense to being told I have an imaginary friend or that I believe in fairy tales though. It may not make sense to you (general 'you', not specific) but it is important to me and having someone take the piss if quite frankly, fucking rude.

Fluffy, when Joseph Banks wrote to London telling of a creature like an otter that laid eggs and had a bill like a duck he wasn't believed. When a platypus skin was received in London and people could see it for themselves they believed him. Unfortunately for theists god is not especially forthcoming in showing tangible evidence of its existence, so without that evidence and working within the boundaries of known science we atheists do not believe in your god. We believe your faith to be real, and you may ask that we respect it, but the best I can do is humour the believer and hope one day they will see reason, in much the same way as believers possibly hope I will embrace their faith. We may not express it as eloquently as you have, but for you to foist your belief on us or our children in any way seems to us, quite frankly, equally fucking rude.

How exactly have I 'foisted' my beliefs on you?

My post very clearly states that I don't want to impose my beliefs on other people. "If someone has chosen not to be a Christian/be an atheist then they deserve respect for that choice too. I wouldn't like my child to be taught by someone that there is no God, so why should someone who doesn't believe in God have their child taught that there is a God?" is what I wrote. Equal respect.

My last paragraph is in response to posts way upthread where people were talking of imaginary friends/fairy tales in a very patronising way.

Mine was also a response to many of the theist posts above. In Australia as in France, there is a clear separation between church and state. From this thread it seems there's a slight theocratic undercurrent in the UK system. I thought you stated your position well... until that last paragraph.

The thread started with the OP talking about her daughter's school system having the saying of grace as a part of the government mandated schoolday, which I consider to be the compulsory foisting religion on a potentially unwilling and definitely impressionable audience.

YANBU,

This would really piss me off.

They get them while they are young don't they - I doubt there are many primary schools that teach children how to be an atheist, I have no idea why though!

I agree, my last paragraph was worded wrongly and was no longer appropriate as the discussion had moved on. I just don't feel that there is any need to belittle anyone else's opinion, but as I say, the discussion had moved on and I shouldn't have put that.

I did clearly state though, that I don't agree with schools carrying out religious practices. Especially in a country as multi-cultural as the UK. I think religious education in schools is a good thing as it covers many religions and children should be taught the beliefs of others so they can respect and understand where other people are coming from. But to carry out practices from one particular religion is discriminatory. Much better to have the option to send your child to a school where it is clear that there will be religious instruction or to go to a school where there is none.

In primary school my kids learned the standard hello, thank you and the numbers from one to ten in a few relevant languages. From memory they covered Japanese, Bahasa Indonesia, French, German and Italian as well as learning the Muslim and Jewish welcomes of assalamu alaikum and shalom. The school would be better off teaching kids how to say hello with a big welcoming smile rather than an invocation to a government mandated belief system.

PoppaRob - spot on!

exotic - perhaps I didn't explain very well. My school holds assemblies where moral values, social responsibility and personal development are discussed. But there is no worship, no praying, so that is how the school (and I suspect, many) schools get round it. This is accepted by the LEA.

What I find annoying is that all of these "be a good person and be nice to each other" messages are shared by atheists and humanists. I doubt very much whether the word atheist is ever uttered in school assembly though. That's not very accepting, is it?

sorry, pressed post too soon. Meant to say, that in these assemblies, and in class, children will be educated about religions other than Christianity, but not about atheism.

OriginalJamie,

But surely if the children don't believe in a god, they must be murdering each other and have no moral code!

"but not about atheism."

There isn't much to say about it is there.

You explained it perfectly clearly, OriginalJamie, I would say that it is the norm in many schools. I said earlier that it depends on the Head and the way they interpret the law. I would ask the questions before they start-BUT bear in mind that a new Head can mean that it all changes.

I am not disputing that you are right LeeCoakley, but as someone who has been to many, many assemblies in different schools, in 3 different authorities I haven't come across it-or only once from a 'born again' American preacher -as a one off.

Bunbaker, my dear old Mum is the same. She sees one's religion as being like a stamp of ownership. Any time my atheism comes up she says "But you were Christened C of E so of course you're Christian" and she's sure I will recant on my deathbed.

This is the problem. Your mother has no right to decide your beliefs. She can decide for herself-beyond that nothing. The same for any parent. DCs are not possessions.

"This is the problem. Your mother has no right to decide your beliefs. She can decide for herself-beyond that nothing. The same for any parent. DCs are not possessions."

How can you believe that and also believe it's ok for 2 year olds to than a Christian God every day for their lunch? Does not compute!

I bet the 2 yr old isn't saying anything or even knows what it is about! (I realise this isn't the point!) I got the impression that it is something that gets everyone quiet. I dare say that having been challenged the manager is likely to stop it.
We don't even know the wording of the grace used.

OP admitted not having asked about religion before she started. As I said earlier the moral of the story for others is -never assume things.

One of the nice things about Baptist faith is that children are not joined in at all in the way many other faiths seem to bring the children in.
Instead baptism can't occur until a person is old enough to have explored and decided for themselves.

If you really want something to get upset about, seeker, try this report. on church schools I read it in the Sunday Times and have found the same thing in my link in the Telegraph.

I think this is far more worthy of concern than a 'rather dippy' nursery manager saying a grace that is outside the 2 yr old's understanding.

Luckily I no longer teach and I don't have a DC in school.
It seems rather more worthy of a fight-especially as the aim seems to be the one thing that I am saying they shouldn't be doing.

I'm not upset- just baffled. And puzzled that you won't answer the point!

I think that I long ago lost the point-and probably the plot!

As a Catholic parent I have to say that I would be if prayers of any kind were offered in an environment where none were advertised and especially one where small children were being educated in some way. If an educational environment was known to have a religious component (whether for the purposes of quieting children before serving food or for any other reason) then I would at least have the choice (maybe Hobson's choice but a choice nonetheless) of deciding not to send my child there. I am speaking as someone who spent some time investigating a Steiner nursery school for one of the DDs until I found out more about anthroposcopy (sp?).

A school should respect the relationship between the parent and the child above all, and that involves respecting the religious or non-religious home environment of the home the parents provide, in their wisdom, for their children.

A school should also be cognisant of the fact that it is not really a good solution to offer to exclude children who don't wish to take part in whatever religious activities go on. Children do not like being excluded, and it makes them feel their family is odd. It is not respectful of the family to do this, or to the child, to whom family is the most important unit of society. My DCs attended school in the US where I decided not to exclude them from the daily Pledge of Allegiance to the US flag just for this reason.

exoticfruits - the comments under that article are interesting.

If the article is right, yes, it's worrying. This bit is especially chilling:

"But the Church is keen to expand its influence on the back of the academies and free schools programme, which takes schools out of direct local authority control and places them in the hands of charities, entrepreneurs and faith groups."

So basically any loon who manages to start a free school could stand up in assembly and indulge themselves in lecturing children (from a position of authority) on whatever takes their fancy - great .

I find it very worrying-it's express purpose seems to be to 'catch them young' and fight secularism-unless I read it wrongly.
It is far more worrying than the grace in nursery, which appears to me just to be a manager who hasn't given it much thought.

I agree that is more worrying, VERY worrying in fact, but although the grace incident is a small thing it still needs to be challenged. If incidences like this are not, it will be assumed that the general public/parents actually like religious titbits dropped into the schoolday. If we challenge them, then maybe a more accurate picture will eventually emerge that worshipping and schools should be kept separate. < ducks as pig flies over>

OP has challenged it and I dare say she has stopped it.

I couldn't do a link to the Sunday Times because you have to subscribe but it starts:

'THE Church of England is to open hundreds of new schools to spread Christian education and confront the growth of ?aggressive secularism?.

The expansion plan will also see the church offering its services to secular schools, advising them on areas such as improving academic performance and designing their religious curriculum. Other initiatives could include multi-faith schools shared between Anglicanism and other religions.

The move comes just days after Rowan Williams announced he was quitting as Archbishop of Canterbury. Speaking before Williams?s announcement, John Pritchard, chairman of the Church of England?s board of education, said expansion would build on church schools? popularity with parents and their record of academic achievement.

A Church of England report, to be published on Friday, finds that Anglican schools now bring more people into contact with Christianity than Sunday church worship. Pritchard, who is Bishop of Oxford, believes this makes them ideally placed to confront secularism, which he described as a ?good, healthy challenge because it brings us out of our comfort zone?.

I think it is a bit different from the Telegraph one-particularly the part I have put in bold. Grace in nursery is quite insignificant against this idea.

I am surprised that seeker wasn't upset about it. I find it worrying and I haven't had a problem with collective worship.(or not much of a one)