AIBU to think the "40 Days for Life" campaigners are utterly immoral

[technodad]

news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9705000/9705877.stm

I agree with the suggestion up thread....there is presumably nothing to stop anyone wandering around with a pillow up there jumper in the vicinity of a clinic?

We could swamp the actual users to the point that their anonymity would be preserved...

also wtf to the idea that pro-lifers are offering a choice? Women already have that option...to go on with the pregnancy...

continuation is the default, abortion is the choice.

OK I see what you mean now bumbley, why didn't you just say that instead of being all PA about it?

Why are you ending all your posts with .... ?

I get that you don't agree with abortion - your choice, but that is not what this thread is about - its about the '40 days for life' campaigners harassing and intimidating vulnerable females. Females that have made their choice - just not one you would agree with.

Also, pro-choice people aren't "vague" about what life is, they're admitting that defining the point at which a foetus becomes sentient etc etc isn't fully understood, rather than seeing it as alive and independent (or with rights) as soon as the gametes fuse.

Well, as stated, I think that the point when a foetus becomes a human life in its own right, is the point when it is capable of surviving on its own, outside of its mother's body. So until then I wouldn't really classify it as a human life to be honest.

Do you also think a sperm or unfertilised egg is a human life? If not, what's the difference between that and a few days old foetus?

Despite that, personally I would find the decision to have an abortion to be a difficult one. I'm sure most women probably do. Especially towards the end of the legal cutoff. If you told me that you had made the choice not to have an abortion yourself, for moral reasons, then that would be something I could understand and respect. What sickens me is when other people (usually men) try to take that choice away from us.

Also, my reason for being a vegetarian is more to do with the suffering of animals killed for human consumption, rather than the fact that is is immoral to eat them per se. But that's another thread...

If it genuinely is a peaceful prayer vigil then I don't think it can really be considered harassment and intimidation unless it's because it is upsetting people but by that logic, any protest could be considered harassment and intimidation.

That's the problem bumbley, its not. Read the link, listen to the Radio 5 interview with one of the protestors. These 'peaceful prayer' vigils decended into filming the service providers and users to be shown on a Christian TV Channel and Internet, thrusting leaflets into the hands of weeping women, showing placards with intimidating messages.

All this was admitted on interview, including the fact that they believe ALL abortion is wrong, incl those undertaken on medical advice.

That is what we think is disgusting. If these poeple really want to hold a silent prayer vigil, fine, go ahead, but do it outside Parliament or in a church, not outside the clinics. Doing that is wrong - They don't know the reason the women are there, and they are adding to their distress.

Mrsbugsy, does that mean that you consider abortion at 24 weeks the termination of a life then? If so, why do you think that one person has the right to terminate the life of another?

No, I do not consider independent sperm and eggs to be human life.

I agree with you on animal suffering for food production btw.

Well I would actually say if they want to hold a silent, peaceful prayer vigil then they are entitled to do it anywhere they want but if they do resort to filming or direct intimidation then that is wrong. The placards I have seen have been bible quotes etc though so I'm not sure what the other placards were.

well here is the bible quote I will be bringing on my placard:

Job 13:5
If only you would be altogether silent! For you, that would be wisdom.

Seriously - you cannot see what is wrong in a woman being confronted by these people, even if they are being silent. Have you read DustedandDone's post further up?

I'll repost it for you:

^This time last year, I had to undergo a termination on medical grounds. It was that or miscarry, the options were that stark. It was have the loss of my much loved, much wanted baby medically managed or go through the horror of waiting to miscarry a child that would not survive more than a few more weeks of pregnancy. I ended up at a BPAS clinic as the NHS option was to undergo delivery of my baby, rather than the 'procedure' being carried out under general. It was the most traumatic and heart breaking day, for both myself and DH.

Had these appalling, vile, mindless....people been there when I had turned up for my dreaded appointment, I truly believe I would have lost my mind^

Can you even try to imagine what Dusted would have gone through, having to walk past these people silently judging her? These protestors show no compassion, can you?

Bumbley, as Minou says, I don't think we can really know the point when a foetus becomes a person. The concept of a 'person' is something invented by humans anyway, so it is natural that we all define it slightly differently.

The point which the foetus could survive outside of the womb, which as I understand it is around 24 weeks, seems to be a sensible legal limit. Before that, it is up to the woman to decide as it is her body and only she can know the quality of life she would be able to give the baby, and the impact it would have on her life.

Can you explain exactly why you think a sperm or egg is different from a newly fertilised egg?

Didn't the christian god kill all the first born egyptian children at one point?

You would have to go it some to get close to that sort of epic child slaughter....

My friend asked me to go with her to her appointment to have a termination as when she went previously she was heckled and had all sorts said to her . I was going to be an unofficial bodyguard as there would have been absolutely no way any of those disgusting people would have so much as squeaked at her without getting a mouth (and possibly fist) full off me. She actually mc'd before her appointment. What was quite sad is that she wanted to mc just so she didnt have to face those people again.

If I ever have to go for an abortion, or accompany any other friends for one, and am met with scum like this, being all passive aggresive with their peaceful prayers or waving shit at me then they'd better have a good dentist.

Can't understand it's not an offence of harassment, surely the police can arrest them for this.

I see these bastards don't offer any practical assistance to pregnant women like housing, money, child care assistance or simply do the night feeds!! Oh no that's far too practical and helpful.

Hate filled bullies.

LtEve - I don't see how a peaceful prayer vigil would be offensive under those circumstances, no.

Mrs bugsy, re sperm and eggs - because neither is capable of being a life on its own.

The difficulty with basing 'life' on a legal definition is that it can change (the limit has previously been higher) and also because there are exceptions. Babies have survived from 21 + 5 weeks iirc so why are they considered 'alive' while one who is still in utero is not? Getting into the 'survive unassisted' argument is also difficult because some babies born at term require assistance as well.

Slightly ironic that a peaceful protest can stir up so much anger and venom in people. The agression and threats of violence against them is just lovely

Passive Agression is just as bad as agression you know.

Well I hope you can pray to your God that you never find yourself in the awful terrible position that people like Dusted found themselves in. Or if you have daughters that you don't show them the same lack of concern. Your lack of compassion is disgraceful and unchristian.

Where have I shown lack of compassion and concern exactly Lt? Or are you just jumping to that conclusion because I don't share your views on abortion?

I disagree that passive aggression is just as bad as aggression too. Silent prayer vigil vs screaming and hurling abuse/blood at someone - as bad as each other? I don't think so.

But bumblymummy, only a couple of messages up hairylemon has written about her friend's awful experience. Whatever was going on at the abortion clinic was not a peaceful protest.
Slightly facetiously I don't see the point of a prayer vigil to ask god to save the babies; consider the heartbreaking fact that up to three quarters of pregnancies miscarry (most before the woman even knows she's pregnant). Perhaps this silly 40 Days group should question whether their version of god really wants babies to survive.
*I say this as a vegetarian who is currently 33 weeks pregnant - I really don't see the conflict between that and being pro choice. I don't think that what a woman does with her body, especially regarding something as serious as having a baby, should be open for debate because it's a matter of personal choice.

You have shown your lack of compassion and concern in your own words. You cannot see how a vigil, silent or not, is wrong. Even when it is pointed out to you.

What exactly do you think these vigils do? What is the point of them? Who are they for and what to they actually want to achieve?

I actually don't think that shows lack of compassion or concern at all and I think you're stretching a bit to come to that conclusion tbh. Let me just set you straight and say that I have a lot of compassion and concern for women who find themselves in that situation. Dusted's story is tragic but if I was in that situation I, personally, would not take offense at someone praying for me or the baby that I was about to lose. I thought she was objecting to the idea that people could be aggressive towards her outside the clinic though - which I have already said I disagree with.

You might not take offense, but others would and right there is your lack of compassion - not taking into account the feelings of others.

If all the vigil is about is 'praying for the child or the mother' then why isn't it taking place in church? Why does it need to take place outside the clinic, unless is it being used to try and force the mother into changing her mind.

Well by that logic, no one should be allowed to protest anywhere about anything because it may cause offense to someone and doesn't take into consideration the feelings of others who may have a different opinion. Is that what you believe?

They probably feel that they are in a better position to reach the people that they are praying for outside the clinics rather than in the church. I'm sure they would probably tell you if you asked them. I very much doubt that praying is going to force anyone to do something that they don't want to do though.

I appreciate that I can only truly comment based upon my own experience and that of those I have met through the support groups I am in contact with, but, (with that in mind), I would find the silent vigil/ prayers outside the clinic as traumatic as any other form of protest. As previously mentioned, I do believe in God and see myself as Christian, but my situation led to me questioning God, and feeling anger, resentment even toward a so called loving God who would allow me, my baby and my family to suffer. Having well meaning souls praying for me and my child, well, all I can say, (politely), is I would have found it distressing and inappropriate in the extreme. Even a year on, the idea is pretty unpalatable to me.

Of course people can protest, but if they wish to be seen as doing so in a compassionate manner, they need to choose their venue with compassion. Why not a prayer vigil in a local park? Why must it be in the clinic grounds? If they choose not to, then they choose to leave themselves open to accusation of a lack of compassion, and must expect to receive opposition, even if some of it is extreme.

A prayer vigil - is an act of compassion.
A prayer vigil outside an abortion clinic is a protest. A peaceful, prayerful protest (perhaps) but a protest none the less.
A protest - is not an act of compassion.

If people want to pray for women or unborn babies there are millions of places they can do it. They do not need to do it outside an abortion clinic.

In the same vein, if moslems held a prayer vigil outside a catholic church, or christians held a prayer vigil outside a mosque then it would be considered mischievious at best and down right provocative at worst. It's entirely the same concept - where you do it changes what you are doing.

The act of prayer is not necessarily a peaceful act - it can be an extremely provocative and agressive thing to do. Ask your early Christian martyrs about that one.