AIBU to think the "40 Days for Life" campaigners are utterly immoral

[technodad]

news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9705000/9705877.stm

Haven't posted on MN for a very long time, just lurked, but this issue has prompted me into a name change and a post.

This time last year, I had to undergo a termination on medical grounds. It was that or miscarry, the options were that stark. It was have the loss of my much loved, much wanted baby medically managed or go through the horror of waiting to miscarry a child that would not survive more than a few more weeks of pregnancy. I ended up at a BPAS clinic as the NHS option was to undergo delivery of my baby, rather than the 'procedure' being carried out under general. It was the most traumatic and heart breaking day, for both myself and DH.

Had these appalling, vile, mindless....people been there when I had turned up for my dreaded appointment, I truly believe I would have lost my mind. E petition will be signed and shared. The right to protest is a wonderful thing but this abuse of the vulnerable is sick and so very wrong. Thank you for bringing it to more general attention.

Well, I guess even though this is mums net your vitriol has succeeded in bullying away any who might have been willing to offer an opposing view.

Except me.

So on behalf of my wife and her group of friends who no longer feel comfortable to even HAVE views on this website....

You describe these people as "disgusting" and yet they are not the ones who are condoning and supporting tearing a baby limb from limb; of ending a tiny little life violently and treating it as if it were so much garbage.

You say that they are bullying: well thats odd because I work just around the corner from their vigil and so far THEY have done nothing but remained composed and compassionate. In fact, I have seen a whole new side to the prochoice movement that honestly leads me to believe it only consists of the worst that this country has to offer.

a woman IS vulnerable when she is in that situation. So why exactly are you so violently (and quite obnoxiously) against her being offered alternatives? Common sense dictates that people often do foolish things out of fear. if any of you can say that you have not then you are lying!

Do you really see this as an "us or them" thing?

How funny it is that so called "pro choice" people are not in fact about choice at all but rude, arrogant and slowly but surely alienating many of their own kind.

you're doing more for the pro life movement than they have been able to do in 40 years!

seriously, bravo!

Just offering a choice? No they are not, their are vile people who are bullying and harassing women into changing their minds. That's not a choice, that's intimidation.

They are offering a range of alternatives to abortion which = choice.

You can use as many derrogatory terms as you like it doesnt change the facts. The real reason that prochoice dont like the protestors is that they are offering a choice that YOU feel isnt right for them. who are you to choose what choices another woman has?!

And so far, the people at the vigil arent the ones that were shouting abuse. Im pretty sure if I was a woman, frightened and in a difficult frame of mind, I would be distraught at hearing a prochoice mob shouting as I would anyone else!

In fact, now I come to think about it, over the last month the ONLY bullying we've witnessed is that by prochoice people bullying women TO have abortions. Sorry, how is that choice?

Labelling a few aging religious people, heads bowed and handing out leaflets as "intimidating" is pushing the definition beyond rationality.
Calling them "vile" is extreme by any rational persons standards. Im pretty certain they dont deserve that.

Imagine how you would feel if someone referred to you as vile simply for wanting to offer help?

Saying that it wasn't the people at the vigil throwing abuse completely contradicts the BBC report and the spokesman's radio interview.

Thrusting leaflets, holding placards and filming service users and staff for the Christian Channel (all which the spokesman admitted) is bullying and harassment of vulnerable women.

They are vile to do this. If they want to make a point, if they are really there 'for the kids' and not just to hurl abuse at vulnerable women they would be protesting outside Parliament, not the clinic. That is inexcusable.

They are offering alternatives to abortions. To vulnerable women. Who may very well be doing what they are doing out of fear or a feeling that they have NO other choice.

They are offering choice so you repeatedly referring to them as "vile" for that I think it is becoming clear is not about what they are doing, but more likely religious bigotry.

The BBC report did not show the prochoicers shouting and facing off to people outside the clinic. but WE saw it on our way back to the office. It was pretty clear that they were bullies, not the poor souls who were trying to actually help women.

You can keep repeating the same derrogatory phrases over and over if you like, but there is and will continue to be a large part of the population who just see these people for what they are: providing what the pro choice movement dont want: choice!

And even more importantly, they gained an office load of supporters as a result of their quiet calm, their refusal to do exactly what you're doing now (being abusive) and to merely offer an alternative.

There is only one possible reason for such hostility, and that is that the prochoice movement see abortion as the ONLY way. Again, thats not choice.

I am a Christian. Don't accuse me of Religious Bigotry.

They are not offering choice. They are opposed to abortion in any and all circumstances.

When asked what they would be prepared to do support the unwanted children of those mothers who were harassed and intimidated into changing their minds they had no answer. They care not a jot for the children.

Putting pressure on vulnerable women who have already had councelling and have already made their choice is not 'giving them a choice' it is disagreeing with the choice they have already made and trying to force them out of it.

These women have made their choice. What gives you or anyone else the right to try and change that? It is sheer arrogance to believe that your choice is any more valid than theirs.

Protest outside parliament if you want the law to change. Don't harass vulnerable women who have already made their choice.

We went to a church fair last summer.I had just had my baby and was with my 10 yr old.They had a stand at the fair complete with propaganda pics and model foetus. I managed to steer past it but was horrified. Later on my Mum and 87 yr old Granny went and confronted them,telling them it was inappropriate and that "our girls" will always be able to make up their own minds so dont need them to help thanks! I was soooo proud of my feisty female matriarchs

Just signed the petition. Hope it gets a lot more signatures.

I think one of the reasons these people get away with harassing vulnerable women is that abortion is still cloaked in secrecy and seen as somehow shameful in this country.

I've had an abortion, but there are many people I wouldn't feel comfortable admitting this to. I'm annoyed at myself for this feeling, because really and truly we need to stand up to this bullying so that others in the situation don't feel so alone and intimidated.

For the record, I am both Christian and, personally, pro life, (though am pro choice for everyone else).

I, and the many women I have met through support networks who have also suffered a loss in the same circumstances as my family, had NO choice in the loss of our child, only a choice as to how we would get through our nightmare. What options would these people offer to us? They would add to our grief with their assumption, (the assumption that we were undergoing the procedure when there were other alternatives to our situation). Or are you suggesting that all women attending these clinics should explain their reasons for being there? Maybe women like me would then get a 'free pass', (though I believe the gentleman in the BBC interview said they opposed abortion in all situations, so maybe not)?

LtEve is correct; the women visiting these clinics are there because they have made a choice, be it a choice to receive counselling, or a choice to undergo an abortion. If they want counselling or advice on the alternatives, they are free to seek this out also. What is not right is to thrust this advice on them at an emotional fraught and traumatic time, no matter how 'composed and compassionate' these advisors feel they are being.

All people have a right to their own, considered choice but no person has the right to deliberately target those in oppostion when they have no choice to remove themselves from the situation. You don't like my point of view on this, you switch of your computer. A vulnerable woman does not like the 'composed' point of view being offered to her outside a medical clinic, what should she do? Walk away from the help she needs?

On a final note, please do not brow beat others for vitriol and bigotry when you trot out the 'tearing a baby limb from limb', line out. Composed and compassionate? I think not.

Sorry if this has already been posted but there's a peaceful counter protest tomorrow (Friday) evening at 7pm. Details here. It's after clinic opening hours because - contrary to what some people have posted about pro-choice protesters being the real bullies - none of the pro-choice organisations have wanted to protest during clinic hours precisely because they don't want to further intimidate women going into or coming out of the clinic.

Dusted I think you are my new hero, thank you for both of your wise and compassionate posts and I'm sorry for your loss.

Daddy I find your generalisations about MN quite rude actually. I've participated respectfully in many abortion debates here and no doubt there will be many in the future. This thread is not about abortion rights though. It is about the impact that protestors have on women who are on their way to access medical services. Quite different things. If you want to change the abortion laws in this country then lobbying parliament is the way to do that NOT by harrassing vulnerable women.

Further, these protestors aren't 'offering choice', far from it. They are offering their choice - quite a different thing. It's their way or the highway. Actually, I kinda admire their moral certainty. But the place to display it is not outside a clinic.

I leave you with Dusted's quote in case you missed it:
Had these appalling, vile, mindless....people been there when I had turned up for my dreaded appointment, I truly believe I would have lost my mind... The right to protest is a wonderful thing but this abuse of the vulnerable is sick and so very wrong.

Thanks for your posts, dusted. Composed and dignified. I'm very sorry that you went through what must have been a nightmarish experience.

I found it very interesting, last time I saw an anti-choice protest, that men outnumbered women heavily, there were several priests and ministers there, and that they clearly have no regard for the distress of anyone who might be distressed by their propaganda (I am thinking here of bereaved mothers, I was very upset by the posters as had recently seen DN who was still born at 27 weeks. That's as a relative, not even a mother.)

At least the issue promotes community cohesion in Northern Ireland. Nothing like a bit of woman-hating for bringing the communities together.

It is actually sickening. If you don't like abortion, don't have one.

Does anyone know why my thread in chat got removed? I put the petition on chat as well as this one?

What exactly are the "alternatives"?

As far as I can see it is "dont have an abortion", annndd.....then what?

I think a woman attending an abortion clinic has already considered all her other options tbh. I seriously doubt abortion is something anyone takes lightly.

It's a last, painful resort and none of those poor women are likely to turn around on their way into the clinic after seeing a banner and say "Ooh, adoption! I hadn't thought of that, thanks very much!"

I had a termination at the Calthorpe Clinic years ago and there were some people with placards outside. The were just standing there, but they still made me feel even more wobbly and worried, so I cant imagine how awful it would be to be actively harangued.

So called Christian values dont seem to extend very far :(

I agree Rhinos. If every single person on those protests put their money where their mouths are then it might be a different matter. But as far as I can see they just want to stop women having abortions and dont give a shiney shite about what happens to them afterwards.

More kids in care? More kids born to mothers who cant cope with them? More neglect, violence or poverty?

But hey, who cares right? Aslong as these so called "christians" can claim they have saved lives. Never mind that they have destroyed a few more along the way.....