to be confused? Transgender pregnancy.

[troisgarcons]

In the papers today.

In short, a woman commences the transgender process into a man. She becomes/lives as a gay man. But keeps her womb and overies. Stops taking her medication, gets pregnant (deliberately) by her gay male lover.

I'm a bit lost here. Clearly she isn't a man? And I have to ask where the gay male boyfriend thought the was popping his sausage?

Cisgender (someone who feels congruent with the sex assigned to them at birth)

And

Transgender (someone who doesn't) are helpful terms here.

Mrbo - Not sure why that comment is addressed at me as I largely agree with you.

From Woman Hating - Andrea Dworkin, 1974 (Book lilnk):

Hormone and chromosome research, attempts to develop new means of human reproduction (life created in, or considerably supported by, the scientist's laboratory), work with transsexuals, and studies of formation of gender identity in children provide basic information which challenges the notion that there are two discrete biological sexes. That information threatens to transform the traditional biology of sex difference into the radical biology of sex similarity. That is not to say there is one sex, but that there are many. The evidence which is germane here is simple. The words "male" and "female," "man" and "woman," are used only because as yet there are no others.

Dworkin continues:

There is no doubt that in the culture of male-female discreteness, transsexuality is a disaster for the individual transsexual. Every transsexual, white, black, man, woman, rich, poor, is in a state of primary emergency as a transsexual. There are 3 crucial points here.

One, every transsexual has the right to survival on his/her own terms. That means every transsexual is entitled to a sex-change operation, and it should be provided by the community as one of its functions. This is an emergency measure for an emergency condition.

Two, by changing our premises about men and women, role-playing and polarity, the social situation of transsexuals will be transformed, and transsexuals will be integrated into community, no longer persecuted and despised.

Three, community built on androgynous identity will mean the end of transsexuality as we know it. Either the transsexual will be able to expand his/her sexuality into a fluid androgyny, or, as roles disppear, the phenomenon of transsexuality will disappear and that energy will be transformed into new modes of sexual identity and behavior.

I've seen radical feminists argue the third of these points (ie that we need to challenge dualistic sex roles, rather than changing bodies to align personal experience with socially imposed gender norms) but skate over the first two. Perhaps from a more radical perspective seeing gender reassignment as (in Dworkin's terms) 'an emergency measure for an emergency condition' might allow a softening of what can otherwise become quite a polarised debate?

A woman with breast implants has breast implants, not false breasts.

Oh and I strongly disagree with people being able to tamper with the birth records

It should be a true and accurate account of your birth

In my view birth pArents names and your gender and name and birth should never be allowed to change

I agree with you Mrbo.

Andrea Dworkin never mentioned androgyny again, after Woman Hating, her first book.

She was clear that male oppression of women happens against our female bodies (hint, not bodies that have or have had penises).

She also stayed well out of the trans debate when it hotted up.

Well, it's nice to know that at least she tried

if you have breast implants in order to have bigger breasts/breasts in the first place/reconstruction then they are false breasts. that's a fact. You can dress it up however you like but that's how it is.

If you have an arm or a leg amputated and have to have a prosthetic limb it is a false limb, and no-one would ever dispute that. There is a strong possibility I will have to have my right eye removed surgically possibly in the next year or so, and if that happens I will get a prosthetic eye. It will look almost like a normal eye but it will be made of glass. But it is a fake eye. There is no difference to having a prosthetic limb/false eye/artificially enhanced breasts. Perhaps the only difference is that the false breasts are hidden beneath the skin so are less visible than the prosthetic limb, but they are still fake.

rhino - I agree with most of what you say. But tbh although I would be happy to refer to people as the gender they identified with e.g. he/she, the truth is inside my head I wouldn't think of them that way. And if a M to F still has a penis, I wouldn't want them to use female showers, changing rooms, etc.

But I am more than happy to support people to live the way that makes them happy as long as they aren't harming anyone else.

The birth cetificate can only be changed under the Gender Recognition Act 2004, this is not an easy process and strickly speaking the case that we are talking about doesn't fill it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004
or
origin-www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/notes/contents

This is needed to give protection under the law, that is afforded to everyone else. This means that the transgendered person is an equal member of society (in theory, anyway).

If you feel that "your bits" makes you,your gender, then that is upto you, that varies, though person to person. Take it back to gender as mostly a social construct and it goes round in circles.

I don't thinkit matters, as long as people are acepted and i have never had a problem with thinking of someone or caling someone their prefered gender,if you spend time with the transgendered community, it removes that doubt that you would.

It is very much about integration, it is very thought provoking around what gives us are identity and sense of self.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004
or
origin-www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/notes/contents

I guess that is the crux of the issue. I don't think gender in terms of male, female, intersex is a social construction. I think it is basic biology. I think gender in terms of masculine/feminine behaviour is a social construct.

My brother is transgender. He is undergoing a change to a woman.

I am bisexual. I have issues over my gender and how I felt about it when I was in my teens and I came to terms with it in my own way. These days I'm very happy to be a woman, but there were times when I deeply resented it for various reasons.

It has deeply coloured my views on equality, gender and sex. I don't fit in with other thinking on this forum as a result. I feel more in the middle than male or female as such and I find the insistance on pitting women v men on MN as ugly and self defeating. More so than the perceived women v women thing.

I am utterly appalled by people who campaign for rights so vigoriously on this forum coming out with ignorance, prejudice and discrimination on this thread.

Words are completely failing me with just how bad I feel it is. So for once, I am just not in the frame of mind to launch into bitter debate about it. I've no doubt this post will be ripped to pieces. I can't be arsed. They are people not worthy of respect anyway.

I have said under many usernames how I feel about feminism on this forum. I change regularly so I can post on other subjects without being detected and prejudged as much. I am aware that my posting style about feminism is clear as day though. I'm outting myself due to the topic here though...

I'm passionate about my views as I have a problem with how many people here see fit to be prejudious in their own ways but remain protected under their label of feminism.

I have always seen myself as someone who wants equality. For everyone. So to see feminists here with some of the views they have, I think they need to really need to reassess their values. I find what they are saying is that women should be equal to men. But only if they have the matching gentalia. And have been born with them. Then they are second class.

I don't get on with my sister these days. We never really have though. The way she has handled it and treated everyone else in the process has been awful and has be coloured by her partners experience. Myself and my husband were rejected before we even knew which has been unbelievably difficult to cope with, when perhaps out of everyone, I might have been the one who would have understood most.

I doubt that we will ever really sort things out. To be honest I don't think I want to. I just don't think that I can resolve the issues with have without causing greater pain to everyone in my family, which is why I don't seek to. Some things are just best left. I love my sister and always will. There are days I have wished her dead, but only because I love her and worry about the consequences. That in my heart, is all that matters.

The suicide rate is terrifying. I worry about that. I worry about her other choices with regard to how it puts her at risk. There is support out there for him and for that I'm grateful. Its not the same as someone coming out as gay. I wish it was that simple. When people say "well he's still your brother" they rather miss a whole load of issues. He's no longer my brother. And to adjust your whole life to suddenly having a sister is mindblowingly difficult. I believe it isn't uncommon for transgender people to reject their families as its a reminder of the past. Hence the knowing that people out there give support when you can't if even more important.

To read a thread like this, and to see people who are so into rights and you would hope, that even if you disagree with them, would be on the side of your sister speak the things they have here is just... Well heartbreaking. And just indescribable.

Fighting for equality shouldn't matter about what your bits are. Attacking people for being men, or women, or transgender is just not on. And I see it daily here. By people who think they have the moral high ground.

You don't. You are just people who pick and choose who you want to make '-ist' comments about. And pretend you are dead clever, when you are just as ignorant as all the people you campaign against.

I have nothing left say other than how empty and hollow this thread has left me and to say I simply believe in equality.

I'm really sorry you are having such a difficult time. I actually support the right of transgendered people to have surgery, to be supported and treated well. I really didn't want to come across as attacking individuals, because I certainly don't mean to. I think everyone should be supported to lead as happy as life as they can.

But Lesly you said that you don't believe in the change of birth certificate, without that, the transgendered person is set up for a life of discrimination and hardship.

The birth certificate process is barbaric anyway. However the government going to decide who is allowed by the medical profession to be considered MTF or FTM and have their birth certificate changed, it shouldn't be based on willingness to undergo surgery. It makes no sense at all to say that the body does not define who is male and who is female and then only award a legal change of gender to the minority of transgender people who are prepared to undergo invasive medical treatments to the body.

GAG, I don't think cis-gender is a helpful term. Very few people fit into the categories cis and trans gender. Most people don't consider themselves either.

I think a temporary type of birth certificate should be issued that the transgendered person can use during their lifetime. But I think the original birth certificate should still stand.

Lesley along with a new birth certificate, there is a gender recognition certificate issued, officaldom can still trace the original documents.

For travel purposes etc a full new BC is needed. The law has to be written in a certain way,it cannot have grey areas, about temporary documents.

Okay I didn't know the original documents are kept - sorry. Than this is fine. Of course I don't want transgendered people to get discriminated against or abuse, so am happy to support anything that prevents or lessens this.

Clothes-i agree on the surgery bit and hopefully over time this will change.

The problem is towards any children produced once a new BC has been given, if there is a change in law, there can be ways around this, though, if sought.

Great post, Fedup.

Fedup - I'm sorry for your situation - your post and this thread has reminded me that I have a lot of ignorance around this subject and that needs to change.

I just get stuck over and over with what other people have said - reading around the subject I am struck by trans insistence that they ARE the other gender - and of course I can see that.

But then why would you want to reaffirm your 'femaleness' for want of a better term and be pg and have a baby - maybe that is something that men would do if they could and therefore something that doesnt define female - what does then? Anything? Nothing? Does it matter?