To really like the book "French Children Don't throw food"

[catgirl1976]

I am sure some of them do and the title is a bit (like French Women Don't Get Fat - I am sure lots do) - and I find the author annoying and think I would dislike her IRL, and I think the "French" attitude to BF is not righ......but these issues aside..........

I've just read this and I loved it. DS is 15 weeks now and I wish I had read it before he was born as I think I would have handled his sleep / waking differently.

He does sit nicely in restaurants though (smug).

It has got rid of my guilt about the fact I will be going back to work in 3 weeks and putting him in nursery and the fact that I combination feed. I love this book :)

It seems like relaxed, common sense, sensible parenting to me

I agree with vesela that parental expectations of their children's behaviours and achievements are incredibly influential on the actual behaviour and achievements of children.

I know what snapsnap means and I don't think it is a blanket insult to all SAHMs. French society conspires against French women letting themselves wallow in several fleece-covered post-partum pram and park filled years, and I do think it is for the better.
Ok, but really - you don't think presenting SAH motherhood as wallowing in fleece-covered post-partum pram and park filled years is insulting? wow.
I will leave it, because there are too many of these threads already, but I am gob-smacked if anyone can't see how that is an insulting and patronising way of putting things.

(Of course, this entire thread seems to be about absurd over-generalisations based on individuals' personally inflected and limited encounters, so maybe it isn't all that surprising.)

You are making incorrect inferences, brdgrl.

OK, then I withdraw my remarks. That is how it read to me. Sorry.

Bonsoir, with regard to respecting others, do you think that's French society or Parisian society?

I live in Nantes and one of the things I love about it is that people seem genuinely respectful and polite. Honestly, I've never met nicer people in my life!

It's always a horrid shock to go to Paris, just last week I stopped on the stairs in the Metro when an old man sort of stumbled in front of me, and I swear about 6 people pushed roughly past me and stepped over him. Hmpf, wouldn't happen in Nantes...

I will have to answer that by "It is French society". If your experience is different in Nantes, you are very lucky.

Last week, we were on a skiing holiday in the North of France near the Swiss border. Management of our hotel were so rude that even after a decade of living in France, I was shocked.

At our arrival, we are told "You can't take pram up to your room" and made to wake DS up & take him out. When I pointed out (politely) that men in huge muddy boots were stomping by us that very minute and she wasn't asking them to take off their shoes, she replied "Are you telling me how to run my hotel?"

Later that evening, I asked for a bit of pasta with tomato sauce for the kids as they would not eat terrine and steak tartare, I got told "No, because tomatoes are not in season"

(A few hours later, when DS threw up all over her precious moquettes as well as several walls, I bet she regretted those remarks )

That was only the first day.

We travel on Brittany Ferries Portsmouth > St Malo five times a year, overnight crossing.

The French kids are infinitely better behaved (yes, I generalise much), and clearly identifiable by these characteristics: they use cutlery, they don't mess around with their food & drink, they speak reasonably to their parents, siblings & anyone who speaks to them, they finish their plates then sit, relaxed, with their parents who are clearly 'in control' of them, for want of a better description.

Many (but NOT ALL) English-speaking children, in sharp contrast, end up with plenty of spare space around their families' tables due to their tendency to stand on the seat, mess around with their food including throwing it, argue loudly & pointlessly with their parents, siblings & anyone else, leave most of their food, then demand loudly to be taken to the shop / cinema / childrens' entertainment areas, heedless to whether their parents are able to enjoy their meals or not. They are frequently still running around in nappies and/or pyjamas doing the circuit at midnight, having set sail at 8pm, screaming, bodies covered in facepaint & generally wrecking anyone's chance of a relaxing evening.

The French children are usually in bed by 10. We then have a repeat performance at breakfast the next morning, to the point that we now get up early, get our breakfast & eat it outside on the deck, weather permitting.

I have brought up three children, travelled the world with them including long-haul, boats & cruises, and am a teacher in a very deprived area, so I am familiar with the challenges children present.

However, I am speaking as I find, and wish it could be different for the parents from the UK, who often seem to lack the ability or will to deal effectively with their children in public.

The French passengers and staff treat the whole pandemonium with the insouciance needed to do their jobs, but is sadly like a 12-hour episode of Supernanny :(

I wonder where British Society went wrong on childrearing. OK, v big generalisation, but I remember being told by a train traveller (middle aged man) in France that he would always chat to any children to pass the journey.

Here, I am scared to start chat with any small children in the UK in case they decide to sit with me whole journey and/or misbehave (I would assume parent wouldn't have the authority/sense to order back to seat). I was strict with my own kids (but we did have our moments) but you can't use same
with other's DCs unless parents back you up.

Wordfactory said Over here there is almost an assumption that you, as a woman, will come bottom of the pile once you have DC. Women who work, have active socialise, spend time on their appearance and their relationships are often seen as selfish or neglectful of their DC. Quite absurd.

This is a large part of the problem. If the rest of society assumes it is the women's role to run the home, do school pickups etc (there are always a few snidey comments on here when posters say they have staff) then it's harder not to. Childcare is the responsibility of the working mothere here, it seems to be the that of the state there.

If the rest of society assumes your DCs will sit nicely in a restaurant, do as they are told, behave politely, then chances are much higher that they will.

American kids also behave well in restaurants but they have lots of family restaurants for them to go to. Also it is a v common event, people eat out several times a week.

brdgirl I wasnt actually relating a sahm and being subsumed by parenthood. Its just that french women dont tend to stay home or be over involved in their childrens lives.
There is a happy medium somewhere I think and I dont think the french have it.

Conclusive proof that French children DO throw food.tomatogate

Huh, I hadn't even realised he had been married before Carla Brunei.

She is his third wife - why all the media fuss when she was prg?

I'm a bit late to this thread but was also horrified at the know-it-all treatment some of you lot gave poor catgirl. I would expect that most first time mums thought they would never eat out again and were pleasantly surprised that they could have quite civilised lunches out with their babies. There's a good chance that will change but enjoy it while lasts catgirl.

I am expecting DC2 and will definitely read this book as I think there's a lot to be said for the French approach.

I don't recommend the book that someone mentioned above "What mothers do when it looks like they are doing nothing". The premise of that book is that the most valuable thing you can do is just be there for your baby all the time - ditch the housework, turn off the radio, give up everything and just adore your baby. It made me feel very guilty as I was unable to put my baby first to that extent.

Glad you have found a book that makes you feel better OP. If its made you feel less guilty then its got to be good. When DD1 was born devoured lots of experts books in desperation and decided that none of them had ALL the answers. I took the best bits from each book and with that and a bit of my own common sense I'm fortunate to have 2 DCs that have slept through from 4 months AND they know how to sit still and behave in restaurants. (I'm not French and I did BF)!

My advice is there is no one book that has all the answers - just trial and error and trust your instincts.

Just finished reading the book of the back of this tread. I did really enjoy it. The author seems to have found her happy balance which is all any of us can hope for really.

I have just read this book and found it a breath of fresh air. I didn't agree with everything in it - for instance, the parts that waxed lyrical, apparently approvingly, about how a French mother was expected to look sexy for her husband very soon after birth (and how breastfeeding was a fad that was bad because it militates against this). I think it is a shame if the only way a woman has an argument (I mean an implicit argument, none of these arguments ever take place out loud in audible language) for not putting herself physically entirely at the service of one third party (the children) is that she is busy being at the service of another (her husband).

No doubt those in favour of this sort of thing would say: ah, she is not in the service of her husband, she needs to feel and look good for herself. this And lord knows it is a relief when you have the energy and time and inner sparkle back to look alright in a dress. But I have my doubts about nagging women to get out of their tracksuits when their babies are 3 months old. And I even suspect that for some, part of what makes mothers throw themselves so extremely into the sloppy-tracksuits-and-hair-don't persona so extremely, almost as a caricature, is a relief from being able to get out of the costume of "normal" (ie extremely articificial and uncomfortable femininity) with social permission.

However, I did really find the book a breath of fresh air because of the way the people the author referred to kept coming back to a notion of pleasure in life - therefore pleasure in family life, if you have a family - for everyone. I know people with 8 and 10 year olds whose meal times are still a bun fight. I have felt depressed since I got pregnant at the thought of every sunday, every holiday, being a grotty screechy struggle. Hanging out with some other parents and toddlers reinforced the depression: constant snacking, whining, grabbing, etc. Having read this, I feel that it is possible and allowed to aspire to a more gracious notion of family life. Even the aspiration already makes me feel better.
To be fair, my almost 3 year old and almost 1 year old are already not that bad. We eat meals together, they have a good bedtime routine, they don't hit or spit or anything like that. But what I love about this book is the realisation - the permission - that whining and impatience need not be tolerated. In fact, they should not, because if you leap to attend to a child's howl of "I want" you are just upping the ante for how fast and how high you will have to leap next time. You're fuelling the fire.

This morning when dd1 was having breakfast, and I was fetching something from the kitchen, she howled about something as if she had been stung by a wasp. When I came to see she said "My sleeve! Roll my sleeve!" I said, "I don't want you to speak to me like that unless there is a fire. Ask me nicely, please." I might have said something like that before, or I might have just done the sleeve and got back to what I was doing before. Now I know what I am going to say next time.

Wasting food is a dreadful way to behave. Children of the Luo tribe do not throw food as they know that food is precious. This is the attitude to food that my children and I have.