To be in awe of private school's...

[whydontwehaveasharpknife]

I am a nanny, the other day I accompanied the girl that I nanny for in rural Northamptonshire to the schools open day, it was AMAZING- the grounds were like a national trust property, the uniforms all hand made by a famous London fashion designer, there was a lake, climbing wall, beautiful dining room, tree climbing, den building, the children who already attend the school were incredibly polite and sat in the library reading broad-sheet news papers.

I grew up on a council estate with a peado living round the corner that used to terrify me when I walked the dog, my mother is mentally ill and I've never lived with her, in my early teens my step mother left to become a heroin addict.

Needless to say, I have had to fight pretty hard for my A levels/sanity/ health and have applied to university this year but I must admit I couldn't help but feel 'lower than these people, the staff, the parents and even the children they were all so refined and I felt they could see that I am not of the same breed.

It is just luck though isn't it, why do some people who are born into fortunate circumstances get all the opportunities at success whilst others have to work really hard into their late twenties just to get the success these children achieve when they are 18.

State boarding schools - never heard of them - thanks Boffinmum! Nice to see there are alternatives. I detest our class system, perpetuated by this school divide, but I would consider a more selective school for my oldest - purely because I know it would be best for her. My youngest on the other hand will do best in the local comp.

I disagree with your premise that a full state system is detrimental to choice and variety in schooling. The inclusion movement has turned teaching upside down to make it more child focused and ensures flexibility. Most teachers hate it for this reason but hopefully times are achanging.

The 30 pupils per class assumption is also false, as a result of inclusive education there are nearly always 2 or 3 staff in a class certainly in primary school and frequently in secondary.

Sadly because of the historical 'teacher knows best' attitude there is little openness to parents and realistically none of us really know what goes on in the classroom because teachers like to retain power and control.

"The 30 pupils per class assumption is also false, as a result of inclusive education there are nearly always 2 or 3 staff in a class certainly in primary school and frequently in secondary."

Both my boys are in classes of 30. They have a classroom assistant in each class.

DS2 has ASD. He has no one-to-one support. He is not the only child with special needs in his class.

How does this equate to 15 pupils per teacher in a private school?

I don't know about Norway, but Germany has four kinds of secondary school: Gymnasium (like our grammar schools but easier to get into), Realschule (more vocational/scientific bias, but a curricular overlap with the Gymnasia), Gesamtschule (comprehensive schools, less common than here) and finally private schools, which used to be rare, but currently seem to be proliferating.

In Germany they spend a lot more money on teachers, who are given a high status, and in some cases are also made civil servants ('Beamten'), and it seems a lot more on keeping those teachers in the profession as well. There are groups of pupils who do well in this system, but second and third generation Turkish pupils do rather badly, as there is insufficient attention paid to integration. I imagine their SEN framework is more limited than ours as well. So they have problems with their system as we do, just different ones.

shagmund, sounds like your DD is bored.

FWIW I don't think putting classroom assistants in a classroom alongside a qualified teacher is anything like as good as dividing the class into two and giving them a qualified teacher each. Some of the classroom assistant support in this country is incredibly poor. So when this model is used to imply improved pupil:teacher ratios, it's somewhat disingenuous to say the least.

"Some of the classroom assistant support in this country is incredibly poor"

I'm astonished at how awful some of the classroom assistants are at my dc's otherwise excellent primary. Some are great - full of personality, intelligent, educated. Teacher material, but not trained. But some are very have poor basic skills and really aren't up to helping children with literacy and numeracy.

shagmund, they get paid £6 an hour, iirc

i think that is relevant

News about report into teaching assistants.

here

You only have to read the TES forum to see what teachers themselves make of TA's. One teacher had the TA excitedily shouting out the answers to questions she knew aimed at 8 year olds
The TA's in our local primary were until they had their children working as cashiers in banks, shop assistants and barmaids, hardly top of the class.

One teacher had the TA excitedily shouting out the answers to questions she knew aimed at 8 year olds

DS went to a London hot-house at 8. DD, at 11, was sent to a leading local comp with an amazing reputation and very good results. At the end of Y8 we moved her because that school had to admit those with statements for bad behaviour, had to keep those who were on their way to getting statements for bad behaviour, and had to try to keep those who didn't want to learn but were probably quite bright inside the classroom. She did very well there academically.

She now attends a private school, not a particularly academic one. The big difference is that those who will not behave are punished and after a few chances face serious consequences. This has happened once in three years in dd's year group but it does happen. Also despite being regarded as top set at the comp, at this middle ranking school for averagely achieving girls at age 11 when she moved at 13, she was behind in maths, behind in French, behind in Spanish, and in the Sciences. It has taken her two terms to catch up.

DD's summary of the difference between the two schools "my old school was good and the teachers did their best but too many people were allowed to spoil it for everyone else, at my new school I can learn in peace and everyone has to follow the same rules".

I think dd who has experienced both has summed it up quite well. The private system allows the children the freedom to learn and the freedom from disruption and anti-social behaviour. That may not have been the case 25 years ago but I think it is now. Also at the comp, there were so many single parents - not that there's anything wrong with that but it is notable that at the two indys our dc attend there are very very few single parents indeed.

Also at the comp, there were so many single parents - not that there's anything wrong with that but it is notable that at the two indys our dc attend there are very very few single parents indeed.

Do you want to unpack that a bit, Married?

I went to state school 20 years ago, it was infinitely worse than the dds' are now. Bad behaviour wasn't invented in the last few decades.

The 'single parentness' would reflect finances. Corrolation is not causation.

Well the dd has summed up what she thinks about the two schools she knows about, and given her opinions on them. Not sure that equates to summing up the differences between state and private education.

I don't understand how single parents are responsible for bad behaviour as married seems to imply in her post.

That wasn't how it was meant but I do think it is easier to instil boundaries at home when there are two parents and fewer pressures in relation to finances etc. We did a year with dh working abroad Mon-Fri, sometimes away for two weeks at a time, when ds was 13 and it was very very tough dealing with a teenage boy "alone". DD met some fabulous and very well behaved girls who had very brilliant and very strong admirable mothers who had been left on their own having been let down by the father of their children. There were also a lot of girls who had perhaps their third "uncle" whose mothers weren't necessarily putting them first and who clearly lacked both security and love as well as boundaries.

Just wow.

Gosh no judging there then. A fifth of ds's class are the children of single parents. No discipline issue at all. In fact the problem dcs in the year are products of two parent households. On that basis I'd say that married couples are the reason for ill discipline in schools as that is my experience. There are probably an equal number of two parent families who don't put the needs of their dcs first.

Hopefully that will make you realise how odd and judgmental your comment was.

Good grief what a load of offensive twaddle.

Nobody said that bullying and drug abuse is excusive to private schools, we were trying to point out that the people who go to them are not immune to the problems in life people from other backgrounds face!! And that the beautiful grounds don't mean life within is a utopia!

The comment about single parents - what rubbish. Do you think it's ok to be so rude to so many people married?

One good parent is better than two shit ones.

But it's still the case that my children's lives would be harder if DH wasn't on the scene to parent with me.

DD has friends at school whose mothers are parenting completely alone and it IS tough for them and for their children. Many of these women work full-time and are absolutely run off their feet. Their secondary age children come home to an empty house every day. It's not an ideal situation for anyone, and I'm sure it does impact on the education and social welfare of many children.

Yes but two parents who stay together no matter what when their marriage isn't working out can be equally damaging for the social welfare of a child imo. And it's nonsense to imply that marriages tend to break down more in state schools. Lots of children with lone parents or whose parents have married again at my dd's private school.