To think that bullies shouldn't get rewards for not bullying?

[DrSeuss]

So, my son came home with a badly bruised knee with a smallish cut the other day. He said that this happened when he was pushed over the class bully. I immediately contacted the school who were really helpful, questioned the bully, then rang me back. I was told that the boy's mother had been called in after the boy had admitted pushing my son over and that the boy had been placed on report. I was happy with this as an outcome until today, when my son told me that the bully gets a sticker for each of the three daily breaks when he behaves and that on day five, if he has fifteen stickers, he will get to choose an item from the class goody basket.

I'm not suggesting that they impose a stringent punishment on a child of six but is that really the way to go? If I had set it up, I would have given a sticker on a chart for each break with no reward for a week's worth of stickers but a telling off and the mother called in again if any stickers were missed due to bad behaviour. It just seems to me that you ought not to reward a bully for not bullying. The majority of the children in the class don't bully and to me that's normal, not requiring special praise.
Thoughts?
Oh, btw, this is not the first time he has picked on my son and my son is not the only child this boy has bullied. That's not hearsay, two other mothers have told me they have made complaints last half term.

Haven't read the whole tread and I really don't want to. OP have you never heard of positive reinforcement. A proven way to get children to do the right thing is praise positive behaviour. The child is 6 FFS.

Child B on the otherhand:

Hates the work.
Is indifferent about the teacher and ticks are just not worth the effort.
Couldn't give a fig about not pleasing the teacher or being told off and in fact quite enjoys it, especially if it means getting out of the work set.
Has parents with no expectations who doesn't take an interest and often calls them thick.
Has a parent that never attends parents evening.
Seeks conflict for attention.
Finds it difficult to read the teacher's emotions and understand why the balls are got out sometimes and not at other times.
Is never how many questions she attempted/completed that day.
She likes to disrupt the calss quickly so that she can go into time-out.
Is never going to get a good score in the subject and so never tries.
She likes it that her friend thinks she is funny/naughty/makes the teacher cross etc.
She likes getting told off.
She likes to be deliberately horrible to a peer for the reaction of them and the others in the class.

How do you get this child B to be more like your child? You have to make the behaviours more rewarding, and you have to start basic and slowly.

ok, i get that too, but how do you stop my child being disheartened by the lack of PUBLIC displays of reward

thank you for being patient with me so late at night

How do you get this child B to be more like your child? You have to make the behaviours more rewarding, and you have to start basic and slowly.

Which is hugely time and resource consuming and sends confusing messages to all the others.

Perish the thought that some behaviours could be made very UNrewarding as a way of changing behaviour. Like parents do all the time.

but who says she is not getting public displays of reward?

• praise from teacher or TA
• good marks on papers
• good to be green or similar reward scheme in classroom
• praise from you

whatmeworry I agree with that too, if there is bad behaviour at home it is punished (loss of privelidges etc). but they cant punish at school becuase its been banned, and possibly because starlight pointed out that that is exactly what they want - to get out of doing the work.

I'm really confused and going to bed, but this had given me plenty to think about. thanks for your time

But Mateymoo, you are assuming that their homelife is like yours, that there is a punishment for bad behaviours, that there are clear and consistant boundaries.

What about the children who spend their time seeing mum being shouted at and hit by dad, being shouted at and hit themselves, possibly/probably for no apparent reason?
What about the children who are sent out after school with money in their pocket, and told not to come home until bedtime (money is for tea, whatever they fancy from the chippy or local shop)?
What about the children who are allowed to stay awake watching tv all night, as long as they are quiet and in their rooms?
What about the children whose parents tell them they can do what they like at school, and if the teacher tells the child off, the parent will go in and 'knock the teacher's block off'?
What about the children with a (lone?) parent with severe depression, unable to get themselves out of bed on a morning, struggling to keep clothing clean, house clean, food on the table, struggling to exist?
What about the child who has learnt that by irritating someone else, the other person will get told off for disturbing their parents, not the child who has misbehaved in the first place?
What about the children who have had minimal interaction before attending school and haven't learnt the basic social rules, who do not know how to behave in society, what is good an bad behaviour?

These may sound unbelievable, but they are not, and probably apply to some children in most, if not all, state schools.

And then you have children with undiagnosed behaviour, who are deemed naughty or bad because there is no known reason for their behaviour. My DS(10) was diagnosed with dyspraxia 2 years ago, and today has had his first assessment with CAHMs, following which the Dr told me he was looking at the possibility of an Autistic Spectrum Diagnosis (probably Aspergers), and ADHD. Luckily, my DS is very passive, and not disruptive, but if he was he would have got to Yr 5 being labelled naughty for things he may not be able to help/he may find harder to learn (and believe you me he does find things harder to learn, just luckily for us right and wrong behaviour isnt one of them)

Yes, an essay, but I think I got most of what I wanted to say down :) I'm sorry if any of it has come over snappy, I dont mean it to sound that way, am very tired but wouldn't have been able to sleep unless I answered this first. Hope it helps :)

Why does discipline always get mixed up with punishment these days?

Op yanbu at all. Of course this boy should not be rewarded for bad behaviour but I do wonder if this helps? I dont think there should be a reward but maybe they know something I dont! Why dont you talk to them about your concerns and ask them to explain their system as you want to understand it?

I disagree with those of you that say it isn't possible for a 6 year old to be a bully.

OP, it doesn't sound in this instance like it is bullying so I would be fine about the stickers. When my DD was bullied in years 4 and 5, it did grate that despite going us going into the school about it ever week for months, the bully was made Pupil of the Year at the end of year 5.

FFS! boy is not being rewarded for bad behaviour! He is being rewarded for his good behaviour.

If rewarding the badly behaved child when he manages to be good was really as damaging to the behaviour of the rest of the class as some of you claim then I am sure the teacher wouldn't be doing it, as she would be making a rod for her own back.

Clearly you have never had to deal with a socially disadvantaged child with challenging behaviour if you believe that punishment alone will solve it and the normal class sanctions and rewards will work.

Most children that behave well do so because they have been taught from a young age that desirable behaviour has it's rewards and they have been brought up in a balanced environment and the children have developed a good sense of social acceptability. Rewards might be adult approval in the form of a smile, a well done, acceptance, or in the form of a simple privilege like being allowed to do something etc. By age 6 most children have moved on from this and have internalized the rewards from acceptable behaviour as being their own satisfaction, but still accompanied by external rewards. In my experience good children this age will see the boy being naughty, and they will disapprove, they may well realize he is treated slightly differently but will know that, that is because he is a naughty boy and will have their own reward in knowing that they are good. They will be praised for their good behaviour too by you and the teachers at school.

...and besides- since when do we only reward children for specific outcome.

If the teacher asks the children to write a story, those that write a story which is an improvement on their previous story will be rewarded by a sticker on their work, even though the story is not as good as another child's. They won't all get a sticker just for complying!
Similarly, if this child has improved his behaviour he will be rewarded, even though he is not behaving as well as some of the others.

Matey, it is children exactly like your dd that I worry for when things like this happen. Your dd will have the long term rewards of conforming and behaving well,so hopefully at least that is something she will always have in her favour.

But at 6yo, you have to bear in mind the children that fall somewhere in between thise that are the best behaved and the worst behaved. Schools generally only use methods such as the report/stickers/prize thing for the worst behaved children. And it's true that thise children who behave well will have their own form of reward, especially in the long term, even if they are temporarily upset at the lack of sticker recognition they get. What about the children who are nowhere near the best behaved in a class, but aren't quite 'bad' enough to get put on report. The children who do find it difficult to concentrate on work and who are constantly tempted to talk and mess around in lessons, but don't go as far as bullying? They neither have the benefit of long term good behaviour or the positive attention that comes from stickers being handed out for not being quite as bad as usual. The teacher isn't going to put that many children on report at any one time, they simply don't have the time to do it for more than one or two children at a time. Yet those children are still getting the negative message that bad behaviour ends up in rewards.

Again, I agree that it can and does work well for some children that have to be put on this type of report, but they aren't the only ones that should be considered.

I work in a classroom, I see this stuff happen. But imnot in a position to make the descisons. We do make a lot of effort to verbally praise good behaviour, but we do that for all children every time we see good behaviour. So the child that behaves badly gets both the verbal praise when they behave well, and the sticker. Those that consistently behave well only ever get the verbal praise.

My DSS2 is a charming, cheeky, lively pain in the ass 10 year old who has dyslexia and struggles to mainatin concentration. He uses distraction techniques to avoid work as he feels he will do really badly. He was bullied badly at his previous school and has found he can maintain popularity and being the centre of attention by acting the twat .

We know why he is disruptive and we know why he misbehaves. He knows he shouldn't behave this way and honestly means to be good.

Punishment does not work as we have found repeatedly. Positive reinforcement does. He gets a smiley face for each session he works hard and behaves and if he gets so many at the end of the week he gets a treat. This method is working wonders and he has had only two punishment slips since September.

I understand it could be construed as him getting more rewards than the children that have always behaved but as far as I am aware they don't begin misbehaving and getting into trouble to have the same treatment and their classroom time isn't disrupted. Before anyone says send him out of class, this is exactly what he is aiming for so he can have one on one work with the TA.

He is so proud of the smiley faces and shows us every day. He also feels able to be honest about why he got a sad face and we can have more open discussions with him.

Constantly punishing him would not have this effect.

I agree. I loathe the bribery approach to behaviour and feel it's a cop out. But I accept I'm pretty much on my own with this view.

Mateymoo
I completely understand where you're coming from.
My DS had an awful primary education. There were so many children with behavioural problems and SEN that he was just ignored. I put up fight after fight to get him the education he deserved but it never happened. The primary school 'advertised' themselves as a mainstream school that specialised in children with challenging behaviour. What it actually was was a dumping ground for children with behavioural problems.

It gets you in the pit of the stomach when the child who has punched/spat/bullied your child all week getting 'pupil of the week' because they didn't steal your child's lunch on the Thursday.

There were at least 5 children with quite severe behavioural probems in his class alone caused by ASD, ADHD, brain damage through shaking by heroin-addicted father and other reasons.
All very sad. But why should your child be made to feel bad and unrecognised for not kicking a teacher, cutting a childs clothes etc.

My son didn't and still doesn't understand why there was no DISCIPLINE only sappy rewards when the child was less bad occasionally.

I sent my son to this school because I believed in the intergration of children with SEN. I'm a health professional myself and have relatives with ASD.
I knew nothing until I lived it.

I don't disagree with stickers for lack of bad behaviour, but they should not be made public and given in front of the whole class.

Haven't read the whole thread, but was struck by mateymoos point about what is the reward for the well behaved kids without SN

Isn't it that they will Excel/ sail through and enjoy life. Supportive calm consistent home life with fun and after school activities. As opposed to child B's constant state f confusion, inferiority, belittlement etc etc The stickers being his/her hi-light.

OK, its not an immediate or material reward, but its good for kids to learn compassion

Going back to the OP, I don't think she mentioned that the bully had SN?
I think working from this assumption is a whole different thread?

My son is being bullied and I would welcome ANY positive action that stops it happening. I still refuse to demonise the bullies as they are children too, and are often lacking in many things (happiness, security, skills) themselves and I strongly feel that all children should be coached in how to behave in social situations, not left to it as they seem to be.

What makes my blood curdle is that often bullies are punished a little bit, a mini gesture and its take no further, yet the victim is often 'offered' all sorts of strategies to help them (by primarily getting them to accept some blame) and it seems that schools and parents often miss the point.

My son needs to learn strategies to help him cope with the playground and group play, yes he needs to learn HOW to play without annoying people, he also needs to be told that its not right for people to be mean to him EVEN if there is a reason. His bullies need to learn strategies to help them cope with the playground and group play, they need to learn HOW to play with annoying people and learn that no matter how annoying someone is there is never an excuse to be mean or unkind.

Bring back Sesame Street.

The rewards for non SN kids are the ability to fit in at school and learn without feeling sad/angry/frustrated/isolated/alone and as my DSS said once like 'my brain doesn't work'.

It really isn't as cut and dried as 'naughty kids getting stickers and the good kids geting nothing' IMO.

I would have started out agreeing with Blu. However, having experienced it I am fairly vehemently opposed to it, although I can accept that the correct response may vary slightly with the circumstances.

The child at issue in my case is 10 and has a raft of behavioural issues. Chief amongst them is his persistent bullying of a small number of children including my son. He is agressive and defiant and has poor social skills.

He has not responded to sanctions so the school introduced a rewards policy such as described by the OP. This had a number of outcomes:

1. The children who were the victims of his sustained bullying felt that once again they had been marginalised. My son is afraid to sleep at night as in his view he lives in a world where violence is not controlled but rewarded.

1. Other children were not capable of understanding why they were punsihed for something when this child, whose behaviour was much worse, was not. It led to a deterioration in the behaviour of some other children and a general feeling of unfairness.

1. It had no impact on the child's behaviour except possibly to make him slighlier sneakier. It has however confirmed his parent's view that authority is weak and can be ignored (this comment is slightly bitter I accept).

Sometimes sanctions are not simply about reforming bad behaviour. In the adult criminal justice system part of the point of the sanction is so that justice is seen to be done and a societal need is satisfied. This is no different for children who, if anything, have more strongly developed senses of fair play. Therefore you cannot just focus on the needs of the problem child - you have to look at the wider implications of such a policy.

I would like to know what exactly people think teachers should do to help pupils who are agressive to others (SN aside)?

All schools have a set of rewards and sanctions that they use with children and for most this works fine. But in the case of the little boy in the OP who has such extreme behaviour that his school have felt it necessary to put him 'on report' the ordinary sanctions have obviously not been enough.

Many posters seem to think he shouldn't receive any rewards for good behaviour, it should just be expected, and that he should be punished for bad behaviour. If school have already done the usual eg. keeping him in at break, missing "golden time' or talking to his mum etc etc, what should they do next if offering extra rewards is not acceptable to you?

I see both sides.

Mateymoo I would feel exactly the same as you. It isn't fair full stop. But it does work and there are very few other things that do.

I think most six year olds understand the need for stickers and charts etc but material things being given from a goody bag must be extremely difficult for them to understand. It just isn't fair. If you were at work and a bonus was given out to someone who was consistently late and caused trouble but who had "improved" recently, and you didn't get a bonus despite working your socks off, you'd be very peeved. It's no good saying - but your boss kept praising you or you get internal satisfaction and all the other things that other posters have mentioned. You didn't get the bonus and you wouldn't be happy about the unfairness of it. End of.

Having said that, schools have limited options and have to try whatever they can. If it makes life easier generally for the others, thats good and need to be done. IME there are some cases where there are long term benefits, where the material reward system can be phased out and good behaviour continues. Equally there are cases where children will always have the mentality of "what's in it for me"

Rewarding improved behaviour is a necessary evil but I am having trouble seeing the POV of posters on here who try and justify it by saying it is fair. It is not.

Great post shewhowines. A necessary evil, sums it up just about right