To think that bullies shouldn't get rewards for not bullying?

[DrSeuss]

So, my son came home with a badly bruised knee with a smallish cut the other day. He said that this happened when he was pushed over the class bully. I immediately contacted the school who were really helpful, questioned the bully, then rang me back. I was told that the boy's mother had been called in after the boy had admitted pushing my son over and that the boy had been placed on report. I was happy with this as an outcome until today, when my son told me that the bully gets a sticker for each of the three daily breaks when he behaves and that on day five, if he has fifteen stickers, he will get to choose an item from the class goody basket.

I'm not suggesting that they impose a stringent punishment on a child of six but is that really the way to go? If I had set it up, I would have given a sticker on a chart for each break with no reward for a week's worth of stickers but a telling off and the mother called in again if any stickers were missed due to bad behaviour. It just seems to me that you ought not to reward a bully for not bullying. The majority of the children in the class don't bully and to me that's normal, not requiring special praise.
Thoughts?
Oh, btw, this is not the first time he has picked on my son and my son is not the only child this boy has bullied. That's not hearsay, two other mothers have told me they have made complaints last half term.

What matters most? The fairness, or the effectiveness?

Effectiveness matters most, but I am not sure something can be effective when it is perceived as so unfair. The impact it has on the other children renders it ineffective. I would be most interested to hear any stories of such strategies actually being effective.

I think it works best for younger kids who are basically good kids but need help seeing the right path to take. It gives them an incentive to make the right choice and then other aspects such as, positive praise /acceptance from other kids/pride in themselves, kick in. These benefits can then take over from the need for stickers etc.

The other thing is that whilst it may not solve the problem completely - the child may continue to be a PITA - it may create enough of a breathing space for the teacher to actually teach or give attention to the better behaved children.

Spot on Goosey Loosey and Shewhowiness - totally agree with your points of view.
Something no one has mentioned, however, is that maybe, instead of extra rewards/stickers/treats, the child perpetrating the misbehaviour should be made to earn back the privileges that the rest of the behaving class enjoy, rather than get rewards and/or privileges (i.e. goody bag) above and beyond those that behave.
The root of the child's problems should be dealt with, so that they do not require material goods in order to conform like everyone else. Patience and time to sit with the offending child is probably the best solution to trying to work with the kid to help him understand how to empathise with others and to conform, otherwise, face the consequences... Patience, sympathy, understanding and trying to get through to the child verbally is what is needed - bribing with treats is a short term fix and a cop out.

As for the parent whose child's bully received Pupil of the Year - my heart goes out to you! That is the most dreadful and appalling set of circumstances of appeasing and overindulging a bully that I have ever heard!

Yes I agree with you. Unfortunately there just isn't the time or the manpower, in most situations, to get to the roots of the problems. Rewarding improved behaviour is just a 'sticking plaster' in a lot of cases. I think a lot of teachers probably do use a combination of consequences / "earning back" treats and rewards such as stickers. I never used a goody bag though. I couldn't get past the unfairness.

Thanks Mummle :) It was awful. The school refused to acknowledge this girl was a bully as 'her mum is a matron at the hospital and they live in a lovely house and are a nice family' so she just got away with it.

I ended up having to confront the 'matron' about it and it did stop then!

Very good post by shewhowines. It is tricky, however you dress it up, and yes of course positive reinforcement should be used to try and improve bad behavior. But matey also makes a very good point that the well-behaved and compliant children often get ignored, with some posters claiming somehow 'virtue' is its own reward.
In my DD's class they have a reward system for doing good things such as tidying up, as well as for their work, but also she gets to see the worst behaved boy in the class (and the one who has actually been mean to her in the playground, tripped her up etc) becoming 'star of the week' for basically not behaving badly. It does seem unfair on the good but quiet children who don't stand out as outstandingly brilliant or exceptionally naughty.

A system where the the perpetuator is denied the generic 'nice things' that the rest of the class get, rather than earn additional rewards doesn't work.

This is because firstly this is very likely to have been the first thing the school tried and the reason they are searching for an alternative is because it failed.

But to understand exactly WHY it didn't work, you have to understand about reinforcement. What the rest of the class 'earn' is what a teacher has decided they 'generically' will like to have/do etc and is likely to remain a constant and be tied up with values of the classroom and of the homelife and linked to social skills.

A child for whom that doesn't work will need more careful handling and the reinforcement will need to be individual to that child and also variable depending on where that child is, the amount of exposure to the desired reward they have had in the past etc.

The most effective rewards systems are those where the child has themselves chosen what they will 'earn'. That means that they REALLY want it and is a much better insentive for behaviour change. Also, you need to reward any small steps TOWARDS the improved behaviour, moving the targets more and more until behaving the way you would like them to behave becomes consistent. Then and ONLY THEN, can you start to reduce the level of reward/incentive, - ideally carefully monitoring it's impact and taking data on the success in order to quickly change the reinforcement/reward to get the fastest outcome.

What many people just cannot understand with these systems is how to assess what motivates a child. We place our own values on what we think a child should be happy to earn and that is why many strategies don't have a very large impact.

You can offer a child a whole packet of marshmallows for answering a maths question but if they are indifferent to marshmallows, or worse frightened of them, it ain't gonna work.

Just wanted to add that rewards for well behaved children don't stop at 'knowing they have done well'. IME those that behave, and can be trusted to follow instructions, are those that are given the extra special jobs - representing class in assembly, running special errands, reading to the class etc. The well behaved children get chosen for these jobs because of their behaviour.
This is just as frustrating for parents of children that struggle more with controlling their behaviour. These children just don't get chosen for these roles - which are highly coveted.
All schools work on systems of rewards and sanctions. It is likely that in the OPs case that sanctions had been tried and did not work, so there was a change of tack so that there was a reward for making the right choice.

Not read whole thread.

OP YANBU, because I think it's unfair on the other kids and might give them the idea that if you want a goody, you behave badly.

To be fair, the OP didn't mention the "bully" child having SNs, but then it's highly likely that even if he did, the OP wouldn't know about it and the school wouldn't tell her (as it's none of her business).

As far as examples of this type of thing working... DS2 gets stickers when he sits through assemblies. Why? Because he has SNs and the noise and echoes and all the children crowded together is incredibly difficult for him to handle, as he has sensory problems. So he has to use a lot of focus and energy just to stay calm and sit quietly through assemblies. Sometimes he can cope, sometimes he can't. But when he does, he gets a sticker. The other children in his class don't. But then, they understand that he has difficulties with all the noise and all the people in the room at once, and it was explained to them that he has to work very hard to stay calm as it's frightening and upsetting to him. They don't get upset that he gets a sticker and they don't. They're actually pretty supportive. They're 5 and 6yo children. I don't think the concept is too difficult for THEM to grasp at their age....

He's a little shit, but surely not a bully? He's a 6 year old with behavioural issues, a bit early to label him just yet. I think you're being precious, but I do see your point.

On balance YABU

I agree auntevil but I think many people have mentioned this and are concerned more for the middle majority.

Triggles, it is much easier for a 6yo to understand that a classmate struggles to sit quietly than it is for them to understand that a classmate struggle not to be mean to others.

I don't have a problem with other children seeing one child get a sticker for behaving well in assembly, they usually easily learn that a particular child has difficulties and ime they get quite protective of that child and are keen to encourage and help. But that is completely different to a child who bullies being given stickers and rewards, because you can't explain to other children that X finds it hard not to bully in the same way that you can explain that X finds crowds and noise difficult.

But that is completely different to a child who bullies being given stickers and rewards, because you can't explain to other children that X finds it hard not to bully in the same way that you can explain that X finds crowds and noise difficult.

Yes you can and quiet easily if thought out.....eg Joey is having a hard time controlling his feelings at the moment. At the moment he is finding it harder than me or you. Joey is trying very hard to controll his feelings and we must support Joey in this.

Or even a circle time on feelings and emotions?

See? simple

I see what you are saying and agree, and circle time on feelings and emotions will probably happen in most schools anyway. I still think its sendi ng a negative message to the majority of children when bullying type behaviour is effectively being rewarded though.

Is it ok for all the children to hit out when they are having difficultly controlling their feelings? No, it's not. Most children will react physically to something they don't like at some point, even if it's just a one off pushing another child because they had too long on the scooter, or snatching a pencil because they were using it first. We teach children that it is wrong to use their bodies in that way and they need to use their words instead. Then if that doesn't work, they are told to tell a adult who will help them to find a solution to the problem. We don't say it's ok for you push someone off the scooter because you are feeling frustrated and finding it hard to control your feelings. We support them in learning how to handle their feelings.

Saying 'Joey is finding it hard to control his feelings so that's why he's getting a sticker when he does do it' completely undermines the support and teaching that other children have been given when they too have found it hard to control their feelings.

A savvy 6yo will be left wondering why they have to go and find an adult and end up having to share when they get angry when Joey pushes, gets what he wants, gets told off and then gets a sticker.

Teaching has to be consistent, and rewarding one child for good behaviour when they struggle is great for the one child involved, but not so much for the others who see what's going on.

Look, if rewarding one 'problem child' differently sent a message to the others that bad behaviour is acceptable then all the kids would behave badly, removing the incentive (reward) for the teacher to use this strategy.

If the other children continue to behave appropriately you have to assume that on balance that is the most rewarding thing for them to do regardless of 'problem child' and his extra stickers.

As for the kids who are well-behaved all the time, what do they get? Oh, fuck 'em, they're not going to get anything

No nothing at all, except an effective education with something to show at the end of it?

A promising future?

A career?

Is that enough?

Yes, any savvy child will see the stickers and rewards the Joey gets for not being a PITA. But any savvy child will see that Joey also have no friends, spends most of break time on his own beause people don't like being bullied and never gets invited to parties. And may also be on the bottom table in the class too. On balance the savvy child will realise that they'd rather not be Joey thanks very much.

There was notorious bully in DS1's primary school class. He was little and angry, a bit like a Jack Russel with attitude. He could be quite nice but wasn't most of the time. He was always in trouble, always in the HTs' office. His mother was similar, quite terrifying TBH! And most of the children in that class were sorry for him even whilst they avoided him. No-one wants to be a bully any more than they want to be the victim of one. DS1 actually waded in to a fight in the park the year they left primary because other boys were beating him up.

I think we are crediting kids with a lot more vision and foresight than a child may. E expected to have.
When I was bullied as a youngster I didn't think "oh she steals my lunch everyday and threatens to hit me: never mind, she'll be unpopular and I'll be popular". There are complexities there which don't fit a one size fits all - such as the child being bullied might not be popular/ an ace student. They might simply be background furniture, quiet and eager to please and getting squashed at every turn and then seeing the bully rewarded.
As no mention was made that the perpetrator in this case had SN, I am going to stick with the 'bullying'.

I don't think it always works like that though. Often the most disruptive child can also be a lot of fun for children that are not far off the same behaviour. Those are the children likely to be most affected by something like this, because they'd. Also children that find it hard to control their emotions sometimes, they just haven't gone as far as actually bullying or being mean to someone else.

It is not true that children who bully don't have friend and don't get invited to parties. They do.

And sometimes children are simply nasty because they've been allowed to be.
This girl who used to bully me came from a far more well off family (they were very well to do) and now she has a pretty happy life now by the looks of it too. It took me a long time to forget the feelings of being worthless when she would eat my lunch everyday and I didn't have any money to go and buy something to eat.
Life doesn't always reward the children who are good. We should try and do that a bit.

Well said pinecones