To think that bullies shouldn't get rewards for not bullying?

[DrSeuss]

So, my son came home with a badly bruised knee with a smallish cut the other day. He said that this happened when he was pushed over the class bully. I immediately contacted the school who were really helpful, questioned the bully, then rang me back. I was told that the boy's mother had been called in after the boy had admitted pushing my son over and that the boy had been placed on report. I was happy with this as an outcome until today, when my son told me that the bully gets a sticker for each of the three daily breaks when he behaves and that on day five, if he has fifteen stickers, he will get to choose an item from the class goody basket.

I'm not suggesting that they impose a stringent punishment on a child of six but is that really the way to go? If I had set it up, I would have given a sticker on a chart for each break with no reward for a week's worth of stickers but a telling off and the mother called in again if any stickers were missed due to bad behaviour. It just seems to me that you ought not to reward a bully for not bullying. The majority of the children in the class don't bully and to me that's normal, not requiring special praise.
Thoughts?
Oh, btw, this is not the first time he has picked on my son and my son is not the only child this boy has bullied. That's not hearsay, two other mothers have told me they have made complaints last half term.

I haven't discussed this with anyone except my husband and the head teacher, so, no I have not referred to him as a bully to anyone who knows him. I shall have to have a think about whether a six year old can bully. I suppose it depends on your definition of bullying.

I think a 6 yr old can be a bully, and tip toeing around the issue of labelling doesn't help
Unsure as to the reward system, my first inclination is that it is wrong, but I guess if it has positive results, then it's worth doing
Not sure what message it sends to the rest of the class, but bullies tend to have power over more than one child, so if the rest of class see the benefit I suppose I would have to say I'm in agreement, albeit backhandedly

If there is a class goody bag, and class stickers, then presumably, these are things the other children can get as rewards.

Actually, kitchenroll, I like your idea much better

I have to disagree IuseTooMuch, the sactions you talk about are probably already implemented in the school for general misbehaviour, and in this boy's case must have failed in order for them to be trying a different strategy with him. If children have extreme behaviour problems then the general school discipline policy will not be enough and schools will need to try different approaches, tailored to the particular needs of the child.

mince - I know what you mean, I really do. I avoided seeing what was happening to my son as bullying, through my inexperience, and because it was primarily verbal. When I did twig, through seeing it on a school trip, it was very freeing to see it as bullying. I just prefer to see it in term of bullying behaviour (and as I said before, I'm not sure what's going on here even fits that definition)

It didn't actually work as he was expelled when he was 10yrs old. His behaviour never actually improved (got worse in fact). What would have been more helpful was parrentin classes for his mum. She used to call him the vilest names and I never once saw her hug or even smile at her child.

sorry - I mean freeing in that I could tackle it head on, and see it as something that was being done to my DS, and very wrong.

I do know what you mean OJ, I skirted the issue for a long time as well, and then I just realised I was being very PC and that people are very wary of calling children bullys. But that is exactly what the child in question is, and like you I found it very liberating to realise it. It's semantics whether it is bullying behaviour IMHO, or the boy being a bully. As it is behaviour I am referring to when I say it, not the person. But we could spend another 100 post discussing that, doesn't change the behaviour

I think 6yos can bully, I have seen them do it.

You are right about the whole class being able to get something out of the class goodie bag, but the other children aren't going to get that as a reward for not bullying.

It's not the same as any child having the chance of a prize for sitting quietly, or doing their homework or whatever. They should have to start from an equal place to get a much coveted prize. It is wrong that one child has a higher chance of a prize because they have behaved extremely badly.

It's not bad at all for the child in question, and I can see how it might work well for them. But i do think that any positive for the child is outweighed by the negative to the rest of the class.

What Blu said.

An increasing number of children are being recognised to be 'sanction insensitive'. This meas that a negative consequence imposed as a result of behaviour does not actually reduce the likelyhood of the behaviour being repeated.

Equally some children (yes, even at 6) are not motivated by praise. They have very little emotional response to any type of behavioural feedback based on someone elses perception of them or emotional state (this has actually been scientifically observed with EEG etc) and do not use it to learn socially acceptable behaviour (something we normally expect children to do innately). So typical teacher statements like 'I'm upset with that behaviour.' 'It makes me sad that you did that.' 'That behaviour hurt x.' 'I'm calling Mummy and she will be cross.' 'I'm so pleased with you.' 'You have make x happy by being kind.' ect actually have no impact on future behaviour.

So far the only type of intervention seen to have any success with children in this situation is to make it clear what's in it for them to behave in a socially acceptable way, which usually means a tangible, desired and relatively immediate reward contingent on producing pro-social behaviour. This may either be access to privilages (such as being allowed to play football at lunchtime) or material reward.

Schools may opt for material reward because making access to things like playtime contingent on behaviour is often viewed as not being 'inclusive'.

I see the sense in everything you are saying EBD, but how do you explain to a class of 5/6 yo's that they are not missing out because X behaved badly and they didn't?

I understand exactly what you mean and how some children won't respond to the usual sanctions, either positive or negative, but how do you prevent the rest of the class feeling disheartened that they don't have the same chance of reward when they are consistently well behaved?

It's a very fine balance that has to be struck, and I think the majority has to come before the minority. Obviously if it works they will have the benefit of not being bullied or disrupted, but they should have that right anyway.

That's really interesting EBD, it would be interesting to see if that research goes further as to why some children are prone to bullying behaviours, and if children who lack that emotional response are more likely to become children who bully. It's an interesting concept albeit a bit chicken and egg.
I know a lot of behaviours can be attributed to upbringing, but equally I know plenty of families whose parents I know very well and are very caring and positive influences on their children, with no obvious issues, who have siblings who do not bully, and one child who does

The school are best placed to choose the method that will have the greatest impact because they have more information about the child. There may be all sorts of reasons that they can never share with you or even allude to. Sometimes a headteacher will make a morally correct decision knowing that they can never justify it and to the outside world it may look wrong. Goes with the territory.

Sorry, that's a bit off topic
As you were

"Schools may opt for material reward because making access to things like playtime contingent on behaviour is often viewed as not being 'inclusive'."

They may also have found that certain children are EVEN WORSE behaviour wise in class if they have not had a playtime to break up the day and run off some tension. These are 6 and 7 yr olds, Key stage 1, not teenagers. have you ever been in a key stage one classroom in the afternoon following "wet play" ... even the mildest of kids kids get a bit cabin fevered.

Instead of rewarding a child's lack of "misbehaviour", the pupil should be taught that he must simply conform to normal rules of civility and that no reward is given for that, (as "civility" is the least that is expected from each other!) It should be made explicitly clear to pupil and parent that violence is not tolerated. These rewards stickers do not help in the slightest - they are a sticking plaster on a much bigger problem and they send out a terrible message to all of the other pupils in the class. I do not care how anyone "dresses" it up that it is all about behaviour modification, positive reinforcement, etc - these tearaways, who "beat up" other kids, behave for the duration of their "sticker period", then simply revert back to type all over again. And, besides, the child that has been aggrieved must always feel further "slighted" and insulted when they view their aggressor receiving "stickers" - come on, wouldn't anyone feel humiliated seeing their "bully" getting a "reward"?
If a child is having trouble at home that is causing him to "act out" in school, I don't think that creating a bizarre scenario where he/she is praised for NOT misbehaving is presenting any semblance of normality for that child.
By all means, a sympathetic chat and "help" for the aggressor should be provided - the child should be made to understand that there are staff who care about them and want to help-but "rewarding" should not enter such an equation - it is paramount to "bribing" someone to behave - they must learn to behave without any bribes!

Yes absolutely UniS and I would be the first person to advocate children getting as much exercise as possible.

It is incredibly difficult for schools to find something practically fesible that is sufficiently rewarding to some children to be worth the 'work' of producing prosocial behaviour. What can schools realistically offer? The allure of choosing something out of a class goody bag at the end of the week may not be more rewarding than wolloping somebody who has frustrated you. Also the 'value' of any reward is know to decrease for some children if the same reward is offered over time. Schools are in a really difficult position basically because both of the viewpoints being put forward on this thread being valid.

Basically, in life prosocial behaviour = access to mainstream society, antisocial behaviour = exclusion from mainstream society. Whether an individual uses that piece of learning to shape their behaviour depends on (a) whether they are able to do the learning in the first place and (b) whether inclusion is something they want/ find rewarding. Not all children do.

So this 6yo either wants to behave and be part of the group but can't because he hasn't done the pre-learning (emotional recognition, impulse control etc) to be able to (most likely) or knows how and isn't interested. If it's the former the school will have to to a lot of work on the areas of pre-learning he's missed (and may or may not have to incentivise that learning in some way) or just show him what's in it for him to behave (which is going to involve having a very clear picture of what he does want and only giving him access to it if he produces acceptable behaviours).

minceorotherwise there is tonnes of really interesting research going on atm about the etiology of sanction insensitivity and the wider syndrome associated with not being able to respond to or use social/emotional information to shape behaviour (or just not wanting to). Obviously I meant some of the evidence comes from ECG not EEG. [Blush]

Sorry, didn't mean to write such a tome!!

Agree with EBD and martha here, and would add that the school has to be pragmatic at the end of the day, and go for what 'works', with a view to 'fading' the bribe after a period, when the new, good behaviour becomes normalised. Ime,(supply teacher) most classes have at least one child for whom the whole-school stuff doesn't work (see EBD's post) and need an approach tailored to their particular circumstances. It is normal. it is also (and this goes against the grain for some people) part of a wider equal ops and inclusion policy.

What would you do then mummle with a child who has been taught that he must simply conform to normal rules of civility but still doesn't?

You 'punish' him but then he/she still goes and repeats the behaviour. What next?

A reward for not doing something the majority aren't doing anyway is possibly going to upset the status quo in the class.

They may only be 6 but they're likely going to work it out and think . Maybe the teacher should keep it as a private thing between her and the child concerned. I can see the reason behind tackling an ongoing behaviour problem in this way, but does eveyone else need to see it being implemented?

I would bring him in for a chat during playtime and try to understand why his behaviour is as it is and then try to help him/her understand why it is wrong. I would try teaching the child empathy. Why should the child be bribed - they will then either become desensitised to these "rewards", or in the worst case scenario, always decide their actions by "what's in it for me".

hahahahaha for that thread, and zillions of threads passim, in which everyone insists that this IS a christian country so christianity should be the way of schools, etc etc etc....atheist that I am I thoroughly understood the Parable of the Prodigal Son when I was 6 years old.

Supernanny gives rewards for not doing things that you shouldn't be doing anyway. And for doing good thngs that you should be doing anyway. As well as naughty step.

Discipline is not the same as punishment. Punishment may not be the best tool within a disciplined and disciplining routine, and yet, how many people want to see it dished out...to serve the little bastards right, right?

I agree about the importance of empathy, and in relying oin an intrinsic understanding of why hurting people is worng, rather than relying on an extrinsic motivator such as a reward.

And yet we are constantly told that incentives - very high value extrinsic incentives in the form of enormous bonuses - are necessary to keep this country going via the banking sector.

What a confusing world of values our children grow up in.