To think that bullies shouldn't get rewards for not bullying?

[DrSeuss]

So, my son came home with a badly bruised knee with a smallish cut the other day. He said that this happened when he was pushed over the class bully. I immediately contacted the school who were really helpful, questioned the bully, then rang me back. I was told that the boy's mother had been called in after the boy had admitted pushing my son over and that the boy had been placed on report. I was happy with this as an outcome until today, when my son told me that the bully gets a sticker for each of the three daily breaks when he behaves and that on day five, if he has fifteen stickers, he will get to choose an item from the class goody basket.

I'm not suggesting that they impose a stringent punishment on a child of six but is that really the way to go? If I had set it up, I would have given a sticker on a chart for each break with no reward for a week's worth of stickers but a telling off and the mother called in again if any stickers were missed due to bad behaviour. It just seems to me that you ought not to reward a bully for not bullying. The majority of the children in the class don't bully and to me that's normal, not requiring special praise.
Thoughts?
Oh, btw, this is not the first time he has picked on my son and my son is not the only child this boy has bullied. That's not hearsay, two other mothers have told me they have made complaints last half term.

The more I think about it, the more I realise that giving these "treats" or "stickers" is totally taking the easy way out. The good behaviour only lasts for as long as a treat looms...good behaviour is not learnt through this policy. Taking the time to sit with the offending child is, in my opinion, the key. I think that children who bully need to speak to someone to help them to understand their actions. Young children who bully need to be taught all about empathy- bribing them to behave does not teach them that.

I think it is the praise that makes it work, Mummle. Praise and affirmation. I have seen children respond to rewards for not engaging in bad behaviour. They have to understand AS WELL but it's a visceral thing - feeling praise or affirmation in the form of a sticker or whatever, feeling nice because you behaved as you should and having that recognised in the form of a sticker that says that. It's not like bribery with a new DS game or something.

DD who's nearly 6 is fully aware that the children who get rewards and certificates are the outstanding hard workers and the naughty children. She knows that children in between like her don't get the same rewards.

'they will then either become desensitised to these "rewards", or in the worst case scenario, always decide their actions by "what's in it for me".'

Excellent point.

One person's reward to behave can be another's bribe.

mummle you have no idea how much of a huge job trying to teach empathy to a child who has arrived at school age without already having developed it is.

I can't even go into the massive range of pre-existing skills and learning that empathic behaviour requires. It's hard to appreciate because the vast majority of children pick it up without explicit teaching so it seems that it should be natural and easy. If you find yourself with a child who hasn't developed empathy it is very complex and time consuming to help them 'learn' it. There is evidence that some individuals may never experience empathy and although they can be taught empathic behaviours that is all they will be- learned behaviours and apt to fall away under pressure.

In the meantime while the child is doing that learning they must be kept safe (and I mean safe for others to be around) and steps must be taken to minimise the disrupion they cause to other childrens' learning. If that means a period of incentivising prosocial behaviour so be it.

I agree with your ideals, but sadly a minority (but increasing number) of children do not fit into them.

Coming from another angle here, but you are not this child's parent and do not know his complete history, including SNs, behavioural problems, and so on. It's not up to you how they handle this. It's an issue for the school and the parents of that particular child.

While my DS is not involved in that type of behaviour (hitting/pushing other children), he does have SNs and does have some behavioural problems (more disruptive to the others, rather than confrontational), and I would NOT be pleased to have another parent feel that they could dictate how my child is dealt with by the school.

Bottom line is, you don't want your child pushed over or confronted by this child... the school are working on it in a manner they deem appropriate... other than that, it's really not your business, IMO.

I never said that teaching was an easy job - but, if a job is worth doing, it is worth doing it right! Sorry for the overuse of cliche here, but trying to modify behaviour by using incentives sets up a dangerous precedent for the child's future development. I know that teachers are extremely overworked and do not have time to spare, but time is what it takes...time and patience and probably someone very good at psychology, e.g. a great SENCO. Giving 'rewards' for the lack of misbehaviour is a shortcut just to keep the kid out of trouble and out of everyone else's hair. To compound the problem, rewarding the "offender" upsets the rest of the class - especially those that have been on the receiving end of the offence - just imagine what it does to the self-esteem of the child who has been at the receiving end of a "bully's" antics...their self-worth most certainly is lowered by seeing someone who has hurt them receive a sticker or reward.

I agree with the OP. I'm afraid this is all too common these days - rewarding the naughty kids for when they're not naughty. It happens in secondary schools too.

As for the kids who are well-behaved all the time, what do they get? Oh, fuck 'em, they're not going to get anything.

I don't think it is a shortcut- rather a short term solution which, as somebody else said, should be 'faded' as self-management takes over.

You could argue that kids who do behave do so because they have internalised the rewards of conforming- they like the feeling of being in the right- that is 'rewarding' to them. Conversely they dislike the feeling of being in the wrong so that is aversive- a 'punishment' to them. There are some people who just don't experience any significant intrinsic reward from 'doing the right thing' or indeed experince any negative emotional response to being in the wrong. Children like this are extremely difficult to teach. Not many schools have staff with the skills to address it. Actually there is no consensus yet on how to address it. My school is part of an intervention research project but most of the reseach is still asking 'why' rather than 'what do we do about it?'.

The kids that are well behaved and do things because they should get the long term rewards of fitting into society now seriously playing devils advocate.

There should always be carrots and sticks in any behaviour change approach IMO. If its just rewards as here you wind up with a weird system vis a vis the other kids.

oh for heaven's sake. This is a SIX year old, is it not? Not exactly a hardened criminal. If it's down to a behavioural problem, then it's most likely learned behaviour. If it's SNs or LDs of some sort that's behind it, then sometimes the solutions need to be "outside the box" anyway. Positive reinforcement is a perfectly acceptable method of changing behaviour patterns.

I find it hard to believe that adults are not capable of understanding this.

As for the other children, I hardy think the teacher is going to stand up in front of the class and say "oh well, today we're giving XXX stickers because he's managed to get through the day without beating anyone up."

Should add hat IMO kids can learn that actions have consequences at a pretty young age. Good and Bad actions need to have consequences.

Children should understand that reward is given for effort. Some children find it massively hard to conform to expected behaviour. My six year old understands that 'little Johnny' got a sticker for adding 2+2 and she didn't because he finds that hard and she finds it easy. She also understands that 'little Johnny' got a certificate for good listening, because he has improved and finds that hard, where it comes naturally to her. It is about helping each child to be their best, not just following blanket rules for all, children do understand this at a young age.

BTW before anyone flames me I do realise I am way off into my own world of extremely severe and complex social and behavioural difficulties.

I am not actually suggesting this 6yo is a psychopath and also think that the OP should trust the school (who sound very proactive) to plan an appropriate intervention.

Actually EBD, I think you are right on the money. Most sensible posts I've seen in a while, and taught me a thing or two.

Snowmaiden, No matter how much you try to explain to a child who has been bullied that the bully is getting a sticker/reward because he finds it hard to behave, etc., that "victim's" self-work is going to take a knocking. I also believe that the other children in the class hear the teacher's explanation as to why the "bully" is receiving stickers (and the rest of the class certainly do know about the stickers/rewards he/she received) but do not buy into that whole concept - they are only little kids and I wouldn't expect them to have such amazingly evolved concepts that embrace the temporary good graces of a persistent bully. And persistent bad behaviour is what it usually develops into, unless the real reason for the bad actions is confronted and resolved and not plastered over with a "carrot" - what then happens when there are no more carrots - has the root problem been resolved?

I have just realised that no one seems to be talking about the "victims" of these bullies. Does no one care about their feelings or their feelings of self-worth after seeing their bullies receiving plaudits and treats? Shouldn't the victim of bullying receive something, if the bully receives treats? It just reminds me of a system where we care more about criminals' rights than the victims. Yeah, I know, we're talking about little kids...but it is endemic in the whole ethos of ignoring the victim/bypassing their resulting issues from their bad encounters... Schools are all inclusive, just as society is meant to be, but it seems to me that, in these cases, the bully gets the better part of the bargain, e.g., they vent their frustration out on a peer and then get treats for doing what they already ought to be doing...yikes!

sigh.. let go of the "carrot" obsession... have a instead...

The teacher isn't going to stand at the front of the class and announce why X is getting stickers, but the children will still see that x is getting stickers.

If they don't see that x is getting stickers they will still see that x is being taken out of the class for extra attention from Mrs Y, or they notice that the teacher is just spending more one to one time with this child in the middle of the whole class.

It is very sad for the children who always behave when this happens. It's no ones fault, it's just the way it is in a class of 30 children, but we have to remember that children who behave well generally do so because they seek approval from their parents and teachers, and because they like how it feels to do the right thing. If it begins to look like X who behaves badly seems to be getting more approval and they know that X is often being told to modify his behaviour, then behaving well seems like the less rewarding way to be .

I think any teacher that is using a system like this needs to counter balance what they are doing by making an extra effort to praise the well behaved children who are usually so well behaved that they naturally attract less attention.

Children can understand that another child finds something harder than they do, and that's ok when it comes to sitting quietly or doing their Maths sheet, but it's not ok when it comes to something that most children are taught to never do such as bullying. Children need to know that it is never ok for someone to bully, they don't need to know that X finds it hard not to bully so we are giving him more attention than his victim. It's still sending the wrong message.

Yep, I agree with you "KitchenRoll"!

I've just spent the best part of six months helping my child to understand why the boy in his class who punches, scratches and spits is rewarded when my son isn't. I was lucky that my son's teacher was really aware on the impact of my son as one of the main victims and spent time with him encouraging him, etc. But it has still had a really big impact on our family.

And I found it pretty hard to keep my cool when the mother of said child would talk very loudly about buying her son x, y or z for "being so good" because he had managed not to have someone's eye out or spit at a teacher that day.

They are four years old btw. I've actually been impressed with my son's emotional maturity in the situation, but he shouldn't have had to be so mature about the whole thing.

Yes, the school needs to deal with it in the best way that they can, but they also need to help the victims and the families of the victims.

It is very sad for the children who always behave when this happens. It's no ones fault, it's just the way it is in a class of 30 children, but we have to remember that children who behave well generally do so because they seek approval from their parents and teachers, and because they like how it feels to do the right thing. If it begins to look like X who behaves badly seems to be getting more approval and they know that X is often being told to modify his behaviour, then behaving well seems like the less rewarding way to be

Bingo. This is the problem with carrot only systems, sends the wrong signals to the 29 good kids, never mind what the bad kid is learning (ie misbehave and you get all the attention).

And never mind the disproportionate amount of resource it sucks up.

Arguably the optimal thing to do in todays school conditions is be a little shit, you will attract a far greater amount of the school's time, resource and energy than any well adjusted child will.

Schmee - That's what I'm talking about! The "victim" should be considered - especially the victim's feeling, after all, they have suffered the injustice. To make them swallow the bitter pill of watching their aggressor receive praise and/or rewards for finally (and usually temporarily ) behaving is beyond the pale. Why...why does a little kid have to put up with that when most adults would be infuriated by such treatment and vociferously complain to the appropriate authority about such goings on.

Interestingly enough, with all this talk about the "victim" of this hardened 6yo bully , the OP said she was fine with the boy being put "on report," until she heard about the stickers. She at no point in the OP stated that her own son was traumatised or upset over this, simply that he mentioned it to her. So perhaps the "victim" is handling the situation fine, as it may have been explained to him satisfactorily by the teacher already.

of course, this leaves it open for the OP to come back and drip feed that she now thinks her son's self worth is shattered and he'll have to go to counselling for the rest of his life to get over his lack of sticker rewards...

I truly don't understand what makes an adult write off a 6yo as a "little shit" that is not worthy of attention and support to improve their behaviour. That, IMO, is what's really sad about this.

A 6 year old can be a bully, but they can't understand the full implications of their actions.

It seems to me that the school is using a well researched technique called positive reinforcement where the child is being praised for doing well and the reward is likely to,be something small such as a notebook or a packet of sweets. It's about giving the child a chance to succeed at something which can indeed change their behaviour especially around this age. As I say, it's well based In Child psychology and there is a lot of work on this type of technique, particularly one of the australian universities is a leading light.

Now if op comes back and tells me the class goody basket is full of iPods and ds's, then I promise i will change my opinion!