to allow ds to be mean to neighbours ds............

[crje]

Live in a small estate (15 houses) 6 boys between 8-10 all play together even though they are quite different.One soccer mad,one science mad ect. They all come in different places within their own familys,1st chils 3rd child.... There is never a problem between 5 of the boys they can find common ground and get along.

The 6th boy is like a spanner in the works !!!!!!He tries to divide the group,wont compromise and ends up ruining the game when he joins in. The kids do pander to him at times but not always. When they get fed up of him they tell him to go home,run and hide ect

His mom asked one of the other moms today if there was anything she could do about the bullying !!!!!!!! Now imo he is not bullied he is just not popular and its someting his mother needs to work on with him. When the others fall out they sulk come home and when they are ready they jump back in the game without any inerferance from the parents. Do we make exception for this family,I think not

AIBU................

Child has no aspergers,I interact a lot with them and know that the childs main draw back is his mom's attitude.
Im very aware of kids and bullying,this really isn't the case here......im a mom of 4 with my eyes wide open.
Its a social skill thats lacking and id help if she hadn't called my son a bully.

Hmm. If this child is lacking in social skills, then he needs help learning them, and if not from his mother, then from his peers, and other adults.
It sounds like you are being very quick to dismiss him, and you feel he is just an annoyance in your sons little group.

But, in a close knit community, can you imagine how hard it must be for this boy's family to know their son is being excluded, for whatever reason?

Some children just don't "fit", or have trouble understanding social cues.
Your job as an adult is to have some compassion, and help them.
Not join in with this Lord of the Flies survival of the most popular.
You, my dear, are not 8.

It's all about perception though, OP. The fact of the matter is, her son feels bullied and she feels he is bullied therefore you need to take a long, hard look at how your son behaves towards her child. Seeing as it's 5 against one I would say that that is the most likely situation. Bullies and their parents will often try to make out that the person being bullied is in the wrong, and to be honest I think you seem pretty cruel towards the child by what you've written in this thread. He is a child. Children do sometimes lack social skills, or make a fuss if people won't play the game they want, or cause an argument. But it's not right that you, an adult, are justifying your son and the others ostracising him and describing him in the manner that you have done in this thread.

You need to take a look at this situation and put yourself and your son in the other mum and son's place. How would you feel if another mum was condoning her son leaving your child out and was making out your son was very difficult and horrible, when he was just behaving as many children do? I get the impression that you and the other parents are all quite cliquey but you leave this boy's mum out too.

And to add, my eldest daughter and I have been on the receiving end of similar sort of treatment, from a group of mums and their daughters when DD was at primary school, and it was awful. The girls were constantly nasty to DD yet the mums tried to justify it and give reasons as to why their daughters were behaving that way. there is no excuse for condoning bullying. I would not tolerate my children being unkind to someone no matter how 'annoying' I perceived the other child to be. Stick up for themselves, yes, but gang up and ridicule, no way!

That could be my son you're describing. Could be anybody's child. Could be yours next.

Otherwise "What Hexagonal said".

Its a social skill thats lacking and id help if she hadn't called my son a bully.

OP, it sounds like you're stuck in that playground mentality yourself. Your posts come across as being horribly mean.

Regardless of whether or not this other child is actually at fault, what messages are you giving him about by "letting him be mean" to another child as long as it's the other kids fault. Are those really the values you want him to be growing up with?

If the other kid won't play nicely, teach your son to challenge his behaviour gently, tactfully and compassionately. Don't use the other child's weaknesses as a justification for your own son's bad behaviour.

Sorry but how do you know the child doesn't have Asperger's? Are you a clinician? Or do you think his mother would have shared any issues with you and your clique moms? Just wondering...

People with Aspergers often have trouble with social skills, particularly the social mores of the playground.

From what you have said, you seem pretty entrenched and have no intention of shifting or considering other viewpoints.

Some people just aren't popular. Just like some people aren't blonde or slim (otherwise we'd all be Kate Moss clones). Parents find it difficult to accept their child isn't Mr/Miss Popular and highly sought after by others.

Children will sort out their own pecking order in life without adult intervention. By all means have the "don't be/act/say nasty things" chat with your children BUT there is no law that says they have to play with someone they don't like.

It's part of the learning process from both sides. From your childrens perspective they learn to manage to extricate themselves from people they don't wish to mix with. From the other boys perspective he will have to learn how to fit in. Both are skills that will serve them in later life.

Although, I would watch out for the boy being totally excluded or marginalised and treated like a pariah.

Actually, reading your posts it does sound like bullying.

The thing is you haven't given anything concrete and nasty this child has done, just a general perception that he's annoying. Once a group dynamic starts excluding one person the members of that group starting looking for "annoying" behaviour in that person to feel better about themselves. If you're looking for annoying behaviour you'll find it in the sweetest child, because they're children, and they do annoying things. It sounds like he might not be that bad and the children are exaggerating to justify their nasty behaviour.

And even if he doesn't have great social skills and isn't popular, that's not good enough reason for leaving him out of a group of all the other little boys of his age in the area. That must be heartbreaking for him.

i agree withy try you sound mean, if this did escalate to bullying would you do anything

zero compassion, zero empathy

We have one down our road like the boy in the OP. He's divisive, lies, stirs trouble. Everytiem he comes out there are tears and tantrums because he has the capacity to stir up so much angst with the others. He manages to wangle invitations to sleep overs wich then end up in chaos. I refuse to have him in the house now - mind you that is due to the fact he questions my parenting as in "exacty why can't X come to my house?" - and I don't take that sort of questioning and attitude from a gobshite 9yo

I don't see what the problem is with getting together and having a chat about what's going on, what the flashpoints are and how to put in explanations and stragies for all of the children so that they know what to do and what should be happening and how they can solve the problems.
So that the group get the chance to explain what they find annoying, and the other child understands what the consequences are at the moment. The word bullying need not be used or even applicable.Then working out what the possibilities are to help the group work as a group.
But then I'm a teacher with an Aspie for a son and years of experience at dealing with the exclusion of individuals by the pack and I've seen a proactive response benefit all of those involved. That's how good schools handle issues like this, by modelling what should happen and helping children understand what the best way forwards is for all of the ones involved.
Reading your post OP, I don't think you are capable of seeing the needs of all of the children as equal, or even that it would help your own DS learn how to deal with compromise and negotiation. Which is a shame, because those are life skills.
Let's hope he's never the outsider, because I don't think you'd cope with that either.

troisgarcons, don't you wonder why he's like that and what has been done to try and change his attitude and behaviour? Or is it none of your business?
I would explain why I didn't want him in my house, to him and let him think about it.

@troisgarcons. I would probably agree with you if it was a school playground situation with other groups of children the boy could play with. But it sounds like these other 5 kids are the only boys of his age in the area so if they won't play with him he is completely marginalised and treated as a pariah.

I've got an adult colleague who has awful social skills. Doesn't do anything nasty, just doesn't know how to talk to people. Obviously, he is less often invited than other colleagues to go for a quick beer after work or to come round for dinner, and that's perfectly reasonable. Would it be acceptable for the whole of the rest of the team to go out for lunch and not invite him? Of course not.

Get together, have a chat, I do think you all need to get together or things will probably get worse. Not all children get along, it's not the law. What isn't acceptable is excluding someone even if they are a right royal PITA. You have to tollerate all sorts of people in life, you treat them with respect and try to rub along for everyone's sake.

Boys between 8-10 are more than capable of undertanding this, they'll be off to secondary school soon so it's a good lesson to learn.

I wonder who the boy plays with at school and how they manage the conflicts.
Does his mother feel he's been excluded and bullied there?

My ds is a bit like 6th boy. He is popular at school but doesn't cope well with the lack of structure with playing out. He had an awful time last summer with the boys his own age constantly excluding him. If he went out they would all say they had to go home, or they needed a certain number of people for the game and he was one too many, or they were playing hide and seek and they would all go indoors and play while he combed the neighbourhood. It was very hurtful but I don't think any of those boys mothers had much clue what their dss were doing because it was all so petty and easily explained. Luckily he has fallen in with a younger crowd who are more on his level but I don't know if his confidence in social situations will ever return.

I think 6th boy probably is being bullied and I think OPs ds is either a part of that bullying or at least allows it to continue by doing nothing. As 6th boy gets more upset, more isolated he will get more annoying and the other boys will justify their bullying more, setting them up for a pattern of twatishness that could continue their whole lives.

Our next door neighbour who delighted in excluding ds last year is now the runt of that pack and his having a really hard time. They got themselves into a pattern of picking on ds as their main source of fun, he is gone and they are struggling to get their kicks and have turned on the next weakest, who was mr popular less than a year ago.

YABU. I agree with tryharder and really tired. I also felt a bit sad reading your post. DD3 found it hard to make friends and she was often left out of stuff. Although we did encourage her and talked about how to get on with others. There were a couple of children who did include her and would stick up for her when others didn't. Which I'm really glad about. She is now a young women and has a small group of good friends. Anyway I digress. How do you know this Mum won't speak to her son. I think it is a good idea to get the mums together and sort this out.

It's really hard to give a fuck when it's not your child being upset isn't it OP?
But you could perhaps make an effort to care.

troisgarcons, don't you wonder why he's like that and what has been done to try and change his attitude and behaviour? Or is it none of your business?
I would explain why I didn't want him in my house, to him and let him think about it.

Oh I did! I told him that I was the adult and I didnt expect to have my decisions questioned. He then flounced out the front door with the parting shot "at least my mums nice"

I was very grown up and didn't retort with "at my kids dont sit on the kerb eating bags of chips from the age of five". >proud of self for not having to have the last word

What would you say if one of the boys hit the other boy because he was whiny & annoying? Would that be Ok?

It sounds to me as if the boy's mother is trying to do something to help but that the OP and her friends aren't interested. Does sound like a classic case of bullying to me - all the others picking on one boy because he is different to them. Clearly he is unable to resolve this and his mother has offered to meet with the other parents to try and sort it out. Of course the OP isn't willing to participate as her ds is one of the ones doing the bullying. Unfortunately there are lots of parents who think their dcs can do no wrong and aren't prepared for any opinions or examples of the opposite.

A bit harsh there dustinthewind. I actually think the op gives a fuck, it's a tricky situation. I think there's an element of the 6th boy disrupting the others' play, I think there's an element of the 6th boy's mum seeing it as everyone else being wrong and there's also a bit of the OP maybe needing to tell her DS that this needs to be dealt with sensitively.

There is a boy who lives near us who always cries "Foul" in the football match when it isn't, never wants to play fairly, storms off in a tantrum if things don't go his way but he's always included, the boys here know it'll usually end up that way but they all just get on with things. His mum is great, knows how her ds can be sometimes and here lies the difference. My rambling point is, it's how you set your ds up to deal with this sort of thing and how the parents are with it all. You just have to get on with it and rub along as best you can.