to feel depressed, angry and diminished because of PIL - again?

[HereWeGoAgainThen]

Namechanged because I wanted to give details and they'll out me.

I have a sticky relationship with PILs ever since we had our two boys (4 and 1.2). Since they were born, we (especially me, but also SIL and her husband) have been very much downgraded, particularly in my MIL's eyes. She doesn't give a hoot about our jobs (this extends to not trying to understand why DH has to work long hours at home, or go on conferences, etc) our aspirations or plans for the future, unless they are exclusively about the DC. This wouldn't be a huge problem for me (I think it's hurting DH though) where it not for the fact that it's constantly brought to the fore.

Last weekend, we were visiting PIL. I dropped into the conversation over lunch the remark that I was hoping to be able to do some fieldwork (I used to be an archaeologist before I shelved my career for various reasons, not least to start a family) abroad for all of 5 days. (We - me and FIL -used to talk about my area of interest before having DC, my FIL seemed genuinely interested and used to ask me a lot about it) As soon as I'd said this, they both laid into me. FIL was more concerned with scoring points off me (he does this at any possible opportunity. I honestly don't know why) because earlier on in the day, DH had been speculating about how to get to a conference in Germany next month, plane or train, and I'd said jokingly (smiley face, laughing) that since I'd be at home with the boys on my own, clearly the fastest way back home would be the most appreciated! FIL took this as double standards on my part - he asked me why it was ok for me to say I didn't want DH to go to Germany (I certainly never said this, and obviously it's fine with me, and part of DH's job) but ok for me to go 'gadding off' to this country to enjoy myself for 5 days. I tried and tried to stop the fight he was trying to pick, but he was off - shouting and ranting and red in the face (this is a very common occurance when we stay with them. It's almost part of the itinerary).

I said as calmly as possible that I didn't choose to argue about it, that it was none of his business and that DH and I had agreed that me going off to do a tiny amount of fieldwork was a good thing on many levels (boosting self-esteem after a long long time out of work, maybe making me look better in terms of employability further down the line, etc), that DH had said it was only fair given the amount of conferences he goes to, and that DH was looking forward to time with his boys. FIL wasn't interested and merely wanted to have the last word. 'No, I'm sorry, HereWeGoAgain, but you've LOST! I'm right and you're in the WRONG and you have LOST. End of' (this is pretty much verbatim.) I tried to say calmly that I didn't think I'd LOST because it was a fight I chose not to have, and didn't want an argument about it.

FIL left the room, leaving MIL to take it up. Her tack is slightly different, because how on earth could I contemplate leaving my lovely boys (yes, even for 5 days) while I went off abroad? (DS2 will be 18 months by then.) She asked if I'd be getting paid? No, it's not that sort of arrangement, it's something you do on a colleagual basis but it's good in other ways. She then said she couldn't understand why on earth I'd leave the children when it wasn't even a matter of 'putting food on the table'. I tried to explain about voluntary work (which I already do some of. I don't think she approves) and about how I just wanted to do something for me. Big mistake. I don't matter, my interests were thrown out of the window the day I had my first baby. She said 'But you made a CHOICE' (as in, you chose to be a SAHM). I asked her why it was ok for DH to go to conferences where he'd have to be away from his children for several nights (he has at least three booked up this year where he'll be as far away as Japan and gone for up to a week) but not ok for me to take 5 days away to do something I was skilled at and might one day get work in? Was she being a tad sexist, perhaps? She said it had nothing to do with that, that DH had to go off because he got paid to go on conferences (he doesn't, not exactly, but she has zero interest in how his career actually works) and because he was the wage earner, and that I'd chosen to stay at home with the children and stay I should. Nothing either DH or I could say about putting in the voluntary work now to possibly reap rewards later would sway her.

There's a lot more to this (this sort of thing happens every time I stay with PIL - as I say, it's almost part of the itinerary) but I can't write it all, it'd be a novel!

I feel (as usual) bruised and utterly diminished by the whole thing. I'm upset because yet again, FIL has decided to shout and rant at me (literally in my face, it's really aggresive) merely to score points off me. And very upset that my MIL seems to be clinging onto her unrealistic 1950's worldview, and that she clearly doesn't care about me as a person at all, only as someone whose one reason for existing is to look after her grandchildren.

I was so angry after it happened that I had to leave the house and kick some grass into submmission. It's not good for me, not for DH who feels horribly torn, not great for DSs because of course this was all in front of them. Does anyone else get this sort of treatment from their PIL? It's a cliche, but it seems that to them, I really am just a vessel! (When I was pregnant the second time, they never, ever asked how I was feeling, only 'how is the baby doing?'. Clearly the baby is the important thing, but I'm more than a plate of chopped liver myself!)

I don't know where to go from here. I had the almost obligatory argument with DH when we got back home, about him supporting me in front of his parents more. It's not doing our relationship any good. It's bad for the boys to see their beloved grandparents shouting and haranging their mother. We have to go back at Easter and at the moment, I feel like running very fast in the opposite direction. But there's no way I want the children going up without me. (And yes, given I'm prepared to leave them with their daddy while I'm off for 5 days, that IS double standards! )

have no advice re your insane fil sorry, but don't argue with your DH about it - it's not worth it. your DH sounds like he agrees with you totally and tried to make that clear to is parents (albeit maybe not strongly enough).. don't let insane PIL affect your relationship with your dh.

You don't have to go back at Easter at all. Just don't go. If they ask why say "because you are rude to me and undermine me, and I don't have to spend time with people who clearly disapprove of me and my life choices".
Life is way too short to waste precious time on people like this.

YANBU to feel the way you do. You could keep laying it at the door of DH and say it is entirely his problem that his parents don't seem to like or respect you. Or you could hit back and fight fire with fire. Bullies (which is what you're describing) don't like their victims standing up for themselves, but I think this is what you'll have to do. If they're being aggressive and unreasonable, dish it back rather than feeling you have to stay calm for whatever reason. Lose your temper.... let them know it's not acceptable to speak to you that way. Far better to be there guns blazing, fighting for respect than staying 'nice', kicking grass and getting upset with yourself & everyone else afterwards. Worst thing you could do is stay away...

Dont go for Easter, why do you have to? I certainly wouldnt. Explain to your DH that their behaviour is disgusting and you wont be spoken to like that in front of your children.

Your DH should also be more supportive and could have a word with his parents to make them aware that they shouldnt speak to you like that.

And enjoy your digging in the mud and have fun without the kiddies :) life is for living and no one has the right to disrespect you

You don't have to go at Easter and you don't have to let them shout at you - you could simply have got up and left the room/house - you get to choose whether to argue or not.

Tell them less, don't invite comment by telling them anything. They have no right to speak to you that way.

It sounds like you wanted to convince your MIL - don't bother, she doesn't agree with you.

You don't have to go back at Easter, you are choosing to.

Your dh has no reason to feel torn, his loyalty is to you, his wife and the Mother of his children. If he won't stick up for you more, there is no reason why you (or the children you look after) shoud go.

Your dh can't have it both ways. he doesn't get to insist you visit his nasty relatives while at the same time allowing you to be treated like crap. Tell him that unless he prevents his parents having a go at you, you won't be going. The choice is his.

Agree with PomBear, don't go at Easter. When they ask why tell them you have no desire to spend any time with them until they show you some respect.

DH should not feel torn. YOU and his DC's are his family, how YOUR family works is up to you and him.

I or DH would go spare if our parents spoke to our partner in the manner your FIL spoke to you. It is uacceptable for any person to speak to another person like that, certainly in front of children.

I would not go back, and I would explain to them that until they respect the choices that you and DH make they will not be welcome in your house and you will not be visiting them.

DH should also grow a pair and if this sort of conversation starts up again, say "we are leaving" and you all pack up and go.

I wouldn't be returning until they could show some respect tbh!

And they wouldn't see the grandchildren until they could control their aggression in front of them.

Tell them that you will only visit at Easter once you've received an apology for their appalling behaviour!

You don't have to go back at Easter. You don't have to spend time with people who verbally abuse you in such an aggressive way - their treatment of you is appalling, simply appalling. I'm not sure why you're DH feels 'torn'. This is way more than just a bit of a personality clash. I wouldn't put up with my parents treating DH like that no matter how much I love them. I think you should have left actually, told PIL that if they didn't calm down and back off you'd be off and you should have stuck to that.

What was your DH doing when your FIL was ranting and raving in your face??? Didn't he not say anything? How bizzare.

They sound nasty and I woudn't bother going at Easter.

I don´t know why your husband feels torn.

His parents were disgustingly rude & he did nothing.

If it was you behaving in that way I´m sure he´d "defend" his parents.

You should both have left.

All of that said, I do wonder why you try to engage with them at all.

And why do you have to go at Easter?

Agree that you should not return at Easter to stay. Meet half way for a meal somewhere, that way you an leave easily if things get heated.
In future I think just picking u the kids and waking out without any further verbal communication would get your point across

Please listen to PomBear. "You don't have to go back at Easter..." Because you don't. And listen to yourself, "I didn't choose to argue about it, that it was none of his [FILs] business.. ". Because it isn't.

So tell them so. You're not answerable to them or anyone else.

Had to come back to this. If you avoid seeing them, they have won. You prove that you were a bad choice for their son, a bad influence - or whatever their problem is. If you go as a family and agree in advance with each other that you will be stamping on any nasty remarks from a great height then you win.... you regain control. But you have to take the lead because DH sounds as though he is conditioned to their behaviour and doesn't see it as a problem.

'No, I'm sorry, HereWeGoAgain, but you've LOST! I'm right and you're in the WRONG and you have LOST. End of'

That's mental!

No you don't have to go back at Easter. You really don't. When they ask why you say that you don't wish to be spoekn to like that, they are rude to you and behave in a disgusting way in front of the children, which is why the children won't be going either. I would really stand your ground with that one. Tell DH he can go on his own but you won't have the children exposed to that behaviour. He must be able to reasonably see that it's not a good influence on them.

It would be great if your DH were the one to deal with this, but I also have IL problems and my DH is totally unable (fuck knows what they did to him as a child!) to stick up for himself or me with them. I suspect your DH is a little the same. So I think that when they are told that you will not be going at Easter you will have to be the one to do it, and why shouldn't you really as you have the right to stick up for yourself.

I would also in future arguments with them, remove yourself and the children making it clear that you are doing so because of their behaviour.

I would also be tempted to say "your opinion made be valid to you, but is irrelevant to me and my family, I do not wish to hear it". Or something like that.

You can stick up for yourself and justify your life to them, but it sounds like you have been doing this and getting nowhere, or refuse to even discuss it with them. It really is none of their business and they have no right to ask you to justify it to them.

How have they won if it also means that they don´t see their son & GC?

You and DH are in agreement. The kids will be fine. So you don't have to justify your thinking.

They see you as an appendage. That's not pleasant, but it's something you would be better off shrugging off than trying to change. Easier said than done, I know.

So it's the rudeness and aggressive behaviour you have to counteract.
If they pick fights again, be stony and be impassive, and be a stuck record. 'No shouting in front of the children'. For variety chuck in 'DH and I have worked it out. It's fine'

I would go back at Easter,but with a quick escape route planned if the above doesn't work. And don't fight your DH about it

They sound horrible and incredibly rude, and I would not go at Easter, either. If I were you, I'd explain to your husband that you don't want to spend time with people who are openly rude to you and who are upsetting your children by doing so. What would he say to that, do you think?

Definitely don't go at Easter. If you need to put it in terms of the DC in order for them to pay attention then it's not good for their grandchildren to see their mother being treated like that. I wouldn't spend any time with someone who was so aggressive anyway, you've 'LOST'? that's ridiculous.

Thanks, everybody! God, you've cheered me up! I was beginning to start doubting myself. I mean, I used to be a strong(ish) woman with a career, a Phd... now I'm relagated to nappies and childcare and yes, this IS what I chose (without knowing fully how grinding it is to be an unpaid SAHM, but is there a SAHM who ever knew fully what it would be like?) but I am allowed to make other choices. We are feeling the pinch as everyone else is and I know I will have to make a career for myself when DSs are in school. So at the moment, I'm trying to build up my work experience (I'm also going to try and get voluntary museum work as far as I can fit it in round the children) to make myself look better on paper. MIL just doesn't get it - she doesn't understand that you have to put in some unpaid work and do stuff that re-establishes contacts in order to be better placed to get a paid job further down the line.

Oh and yes, Laurie, I think you're right - she will never 'get it' and any time spent trying to convince her is wasted. DH pretty much said this.

Ok. Dh. I knew the MN opinion would come down quite firmly on him! First of all, what was he doing while FIL ranted in my face? Well, unfortunately he was gagging on a piece of sausage he hadn't chewed. (He has a really bad gag reflex which seems to be worse when he's stressed, and he is stressed from work at the moment. If he gags, he's not choking but he's basically trying not to throw up on the table.)I didn't notice because, well, my attention was diverted by the ranty man in front of me. Eventually, poor DH sort of shouted in a strangulated way 'shut up both of you! I'm going to be sick!' and ran off to the loo and was indeed sick. FIL then turned to me and said, very accusingly. 'He's STRESSED!' (you see? you made him sick) I said bluntly that I knew he was, and followed DH out to the loo. When we both came back, FIL had gone upstairs and it was MIL's turn to have a go. And no, nobody apart from me asked how DH was, or why he'd been sick. (It wasn't directly connected to the argument.)

DH is blinkered, as I think we all are, about his parents. He acknowledges that they have problems, but only so far. This is why I feel so devastated after they've attacked me, because often I feel that DH thinks I'm overstating it. Often, in fact, it happens when DH is not there (yup, FIL is certainly a bully). Last summer, he went to a conference in a nearby city and I stayed at PIL with DSs for convenience and because they were due a visit. Big mistake. We ended up having a horrible row in their car about whether it was a good idea or not to remove a screaming baby from its car seat restraints and comfort it while doing 80 down the motorway. I thought this was crazy. FIL did not. And told me so at length. )

But this time, DH did acknowledge that they were out of order and promised to try and talk to them individually, because he said if they were approached as a unit they'd just back one another up. but his tack is to try to explain the merits of me going off to do this work, rather than saying 'Oi! Kindly stop talking/shouting at my lovely wife like that! It is unpleasant.' I am going to talk again tonight about this - as I did last night - and say 'well, actually, I ultimately don't care that much if they understand why I want to do this work. What I want from them is some respect and less bullying, please. Sort it out, would you?'

DH is actually a lovely, sensitive man. He works very hard at his paid employment and at being a dad. Both of us are not working very hard at being husband and wife at the moment. One good thing from all this was when last night, I had this argument with him about standing up for me, it developed into a discussion (I mean that, not a row) about our own relationship and how it's frankly a bit crap that I spend the evening on MN on my laptop and he spends the evening on his emails and work on his laptop, on separate sofas. So we've agreed to do something about that.)

I would have left once the ranting and red faces began. Your FILs behaviour was completely unacceptable. Your MILs was almost as bad.

You wouldn't want your DCs to hear you and DH screaming and shouting at each other. They shouldn't have to hear their GPs shouting and screaming either. It isn't healthy for the children and it isn't good for you either.

I wouldn't be planning to visit again. Let your DH take the DGCs and have a relaxing time on your own.

This is beyond rudeness and bad behaviour. It is just not acceptable.

If my own parents or my PILs treated me like that, I would not go to see them. If they did it in front of my children, or undermined my relationship with my children by talking badly about me, they would not see my kids.

You need to disengage from these people, they're awful and abusive. Don't ever discuss your plans or choices with them, ever again.

Let them know that this was the last time. Put them on notice - "the next time you speak to me or my children in an angry or abusive way, we will leave." Then do it. Immediately. Grandparents have no automatic right to see their grandchildren; obviously using the kids as ammunition is wrong, but removing your kids or keeping them away from a toxic situation is your responsibility. I hope that you would not let your DH treat you like that, or scare your children by mistreating their mother in front of them - so do not let your PILs do so either. They are totally out of line.

If you have your DH's support, good.

And have a nice time on your dig. :)

How dare they! They sound a total nightmare. I think you need to introduce some boundries and unite on this with your DH. It is really none of their business. As someone who let my good career slide when babies arrived, I think it is a great idea for you to keep your hand in.

Not going at Easter would be a good way of starting to put some boundries in place and beginning to put a bit of distance between you. Maybe you could say that you are not going at Easter because it is not good for children to see their beloved grandparents trying to fight in this aggressive way and that they were quite stressed and unsettled when you got home. I'd try and keep your conversation light and not tell them too much in the future.

Oh and by the way, my parents-in-law are the same - I am just a womb to them. They have not asked a single personal question about my life for ten years now - ie since our first child arrived.