to feel depressed, angry and diminished because of PIL - again?

[HereWeGoAgainThen]

Namechanged because I wanted to give details and they'll out me.

I have a sticky relationship with PILs ever since we had our two boys (4 and 1.2). Since they were born, we (especially me, but also SIL and her husband) have been very much downgraded, particularly in my MIL's eyes. She doesn't give a hoot about our jobs (this extends to not trying to understand why DH has to work long hours at home, or go on conferences, etc) our aspirations or plans for the future, unless they are exclusively about the DC. This wouldn't be a huge problem for me (I think it's hurting DH though) where it not for the fact that it's constantly brought to the fore.

Last weekend, we were visiting PIL. I dropped into the conversation over lunch the remark that I was hoping to be able to do some fieldwork (I used to be an archaeologist before I shelved my career for various reasons, not least to start a family) abroad for all of 5 days. (We - me and FIL -used to talk about my area of interest before having DC, my FIL seemed genuinely interested and used to ask me a lot about it) As soon as I'd said this, they both laid into me. FIL was more concerned with scoring points off me (he does this at any possible opportunity. I honestly don't know why) because earlier on in the day, DH had been speculating about how to get to a conference in Germany next month, plane or train, and I'd said jokingly (smiley face, laughing) that since I'd be at home with the boys on my own, clearly the fastest way back home would be the most appreciated! FIL took this as double standards on my part - he asked me why it was ok for me to say I didn't want DH to go to Germany (I certainly never said this, and obviously it's fine with me, and part of DH's job) but ok for me to go 'gadding off' to this country to enjoy myself for 5 days. I tried and tried to stop the fight he was trying to pick, but he was off - shouting and ranting and red in the face (this is a very common occurance when we stay with them. It's almost part of the itinerary).

I said as calmly as possible that I didn't choose to argue about it, that it was none of his business and that DH and I had agreed that me going off to do a tiny amount of fieldwork was a good thing on many levels (boosting self-esteem after a long long time out of work, maybe making me look better in terms of employability further down the line, etc), that DH had said it was only fair given the amount of conferences he goes to, and that DH was looking forward to time with his boys. FIL wasn't interested and merely wanted to have the last word. 'No, I'm sorry, HereWeGoAgain, but you've LOST! I'm right and you're in the WRONG and you have LOST. End of' (this is pretty much verbatim.) I tried to say calmly that I didn't think I'd LOST because it was a fight I chose not to have, and didn't want an argument about it.

FIL left the room, leaving MIL to take it up. Her tack is slightly different, because how on earth could I contemplate leaving my lovely boys (yes, even for 5 days) while I went off abroad? (DS2 will be 18 months by then.) She asked if I'd be getting paid? No, it's not that sort of arrangement, it's something you do on a colleagual basis but it's good in other ways. She then said she couldn't understand why on earth I'd leave the children when it wasn't even a matter of 'putting food on the table'. I tried to explain about voluntary work (which I already do some of. I don't think she approves) and about how I just wanted to do something for me. Big mistake. I don't matter, my interests were thrown out of the window the day I had my first baby. She said 'But you made a CHOICE' (as in, you chose to be a SAHM). I asked her why it was ok for DH to go to conferences where he'd have to be away from his children for several nights (he has at least three booked up this year where he'll be as far away as Japan and gone for up to a week) but not ok for me to take 5 days away to do something I was skilled at and might one day get work in? Was she being a tad sexist, perhaps? She said it had nothing to do with that, that DH had to go off because he got paid to go on conferences (he doesn't, not exactly, but she has zero interest in how his career actually works) and because he was the wage earner, and that I'd chosen to stay at home with the children and stay I should. Nothing either DH or I could say about putting in the voluntary work now to possibly reap rewards later would sway her.

There's a lot more to this (this sort of thing happens every time I stay with PIL - as I say, it's almost part of the itinerary) but I can't write it all, it'd be a novel!

I feel (as usual) bruised and utterly diminished by the whole thing. I'm upset because yet again, FIL has decided to shout and rant at me (literally in my face, it's really aggresive) merely to score points off me. And very upset that my MIL seems to be clinging onto her unrealistic 1950's worldview, and that she clearly doesn't care about me as a person at all, only as someone whose one reason for existing is to look after her grandchildren.

I was so angry after it happened that I had to leave the house and kick some grass into submmission. It's not good for me, not for DH who feels horribly torn, not great for DSs because of course this was all in front of them. Does anyone else get this sort of treatment from their PIL? It's a cliche, but it seems that to them, I really am just a vessel! (When I was pregnant the second time, they never, ever asked how I was feeling, only 'how is the baby doing?'. Clearly the baby is the important thing, but I'm more than a plate of chopped liver myself!)

I don't know where to go from here. I had the almost obligatory argument with DH when we got back home, about him supporting me in front of his parents more. It's not doing our relationship any good. It's bad for the boys to see their beloved grandparents shouting and haranging their mother. We have to go back at Easter and at the moment, I feel like running very fast in the opposite direction. But there's no way I want the children going up without me. (And yes, given I'm prepared to leave them with their daddy while I'm off for 5 days, that IS double standards! )

Sadly I think some of that generation hold the belief that because they are the "parents" and you are the "child" they can behave exactly as they want and you have to suck it up. This is honestly what my MIL thinks she has said as much. She could not contemplate that we would not see her again if she carried on behaving as she was because she is DH's mother she can do as she will. There is no reasoning with someone with this mindset being the basis of their interaction with you all you can do is withdraw.

When your FIL starts on a contentious subject - see it for what it is - attention seeking. Smile and nod, smile and nod and if he asks a direct question say "I don't really have an opinion on that I want to share" then ask your MIL something about her garden/other interests/family member. Don't engage - don't spar - it takes two to have an argument so just don't. He will probably explode in frustration!

Jesus Christ.

Anyone that spoke to me like that in front of dc wouldn't see me, or them, again.

Unacceptable.

Your dh needs a fucking backbone.

... so when your DH had finished throwing up, why did he not come back into the room and say "How dare you speak to my wife like that? We're leaving"?

Unbelieveable.

I'm not sure what is worse, your Pils' behaviour or the fact you and your DH think it is appropriate to allow your children to witness this.

I think a lot of the previous posters have pretty much summed it up. You and your DH need to both grow some balls and start protecting your children from such distructive behaviour.

I don't know why my DH didn't come back in and object to the way he'd seen (though the veil of him gagging, obviously) his FIL behaving towards me and in front of the boys, no. His perception of how his parents treat me is an ongoing issue in our relationship, believe me.

I do realise that DH's take on this is THE thing that has to be addressed, and I am trying to work out why he's being rather dim about what's going on. I have no idea if he was similarly shouted at as a child (no, they don't tend to shout or pick fights with him, on the whole, but it has happened. And he tends to bridle and snip, or shout, back.). I can only assume that because this is the way his dad's always been - looking for things to get ranty about - that DH is very blinkered about it. He also asserts that it's his mum, in fact, who holds the reins, and that anything his dad comes out with is pure bluster (in my case, pure bullying bluster ) but that his mum has the final say on what his parents think or decide to do. I think this is true to a certain extent - his mum doesn't like music much (she has tinitus now, so that's explicable to a certain extent, but didn't always have it) so they have never really had a lot of music on at home. If she didn't like or have any interest in a tv programme, it was never shown. Apparently DH used to watch various classic films on at Christmas in 10 minute segments, year on year, until after a decade or so, he'd have seen the whole thing! She definitely has the last say and casting vote on anything. They've moved houses more times than I can count because she gets an idee fixe (sorry, can't do accents!) about doing up a house and then gets itchy feet and wants to move on.

So you could say that DH's been manipulated not by his dad, but by his mum, all these years.

I just don't understand it, though, because he really is (DH) a lovely, sensitive, caring man. In many ways, far far more patient and understanding of the DSs than I often am.

I keep on wondering whether or not to ring SIL and debrief her, because she'll be getting it all from them, but as I said, she also has problems with her mum upsetting her over what she should and shouldn't be doing with her life.

To those who say ' just keep away, keep the DC away' - sorry, but that's sort of the MN equivalent, in these circs, of 'Leave the bastard!' And no, I can't really keep the DC away from their grandparents. What we have to do is to try and make the relationship less toxic from my point of view, and also to put a stop to shouting in front of the DC - and if I ever see any bullying from them towards the DSs, they would instantly lose grandparent priviledges.

I have to agree with ENorma above - your DH needs to grow a backbone rather than have some sort of attention seeking choking fit...

Does DH's ability to choke often happen just at the exact moment that he needs to say something assertive...???

"What we have to do is to try and make the relationship less toxic from my point of view, and also to put a stop to shouting in front of the DC -"

Good luck with that!

Why you think that these people deserve to see your children is quite beyond me tbh.

Oi! Sorry, that's not fair. DH's gagging is something I bloody well wish we could get to the bottom of (one day I will just have to frogmarch him to the GP but he claims to have already told them, to general shrugging and lack of help) but he does not put it on. I am pretty sure that out of the two of us, if one of us were to pull some sort of sympathy or sicky fit in order to duck out of something, it would be more likely to be me. He has an unexplained gag with lumpy food or stuff like apple skins (perhaps his bloody mother didn't wean him properly, I don't know!? ) and I do think it's exacerbated by stress, but this is the first time it's ever happened when he should have been saying something important.

And no, neither DH nor I think it was at all appropriate to let the DSs see this. It happened while we were all eating - what was I to do, whisk them our of their chairs and highchairs and take them all into the hall?

'And no, I can't really keep the DC away from their grandparents.'

oh dear. as you were then.

'what was I to do, whisk them our of their chairs and highchairs and take them all into the hall?'

YES

No you shouldn't have to remove them because it shouldn't happen at all in the first place.

I am that you continue to let your dc see this tbh.

What exactly do you think they are gaining from these trips? That would concern me greatly.

what was I to do, whisk them our of their chairs and highchairs and take them all into the hall?
Doing something might have been a start. You seem determined to be the victim, by constantly making excuses for both your and your Dh's inability to stand firm and stop this arguing and shouting in the first place. Your poor kids, you may not realise it, but your kids will have picked up on all of this. Very sad.

OP, I do understand - Its not in the same league, but every time I go to see my father he wants an argument.

Its not in the same league because its not a personal attack, his wife is usually telling him to shut up and is distinctly cross with him about it, and its not in front of my DD as she is in bed. However, I do find it hard to deal with.

He has a glass of wine with dinner and then wants a fight. He might start with an opening gambit of "You mothers these days, going on about sleepless nights and how hard it is. Its not hard, I had five children, its easy - you all just get together and get hysterical - typical women". Obviously at least three annoying things in that statement which is designed to wind me up and he has a huge number of equally annoying statements ranging from my lack of effort on my career to politics, to nurture versus nature all in a quite shouty manner.

His also does the "you have lost, I have won - I am a psychologist" thing in triumph. It drives my DH demented. I have now started saying "I am not discussing that with you" and changing the subject. It does wind him up further for a bit, saying that i have lost, or that its because I know he is right, but I just avoid all eye contact with him until he shuts up. Not sure if this is the best way to deal with it, but I have found its the only one that works.

I do understand that the solution isn't to stay away. He is a fabulous grandfather to my DD and she adores him and her GM, so the last thing I would do is keep away.

One thing I have wondered, my father never used to be like this at all, is whether it is potentially one symptom of aging problems. He is in his 70s and is starting to be a bit forgetful and repeats the same story a few times. My sisters and I have wondered if this is another side to it (he does it with them too).

And no, I can't really keep the DC away from their grandparents.

Are you choosing not to for the sake of their relationship or do you feel it's impossible/DH wouldn't allow it etc?

What you can do though is keep the DCs away from now on, including Easter (you really DON'T have to go!) until the ILs get the point that you are pissed off. Really I think it is worth making the point. Let them see that them seeing their GC is dependent on you and on their role in being nice to you to facilitate that.

I suppose it's sort of punishing them but it's also making a point.

I get the feeling though that you find it impossible not to go to these family gatherings and I wondering why.

how DARE they, who the bloody hell do they think they are??

i can understand how your husband can feel torn because he loves you both, but his parents were in the wrong and he has to defend you. please explain this to him, make him realise that it is his place to stand up for you when his parents speak to you like that.

you are clearly an intelligent woman, and in the future you will probably want to work again, this is a great opportunity and has nothing to do with anybody other than you and DH. MAKE THAT CLEAR!!! they need to understand that their horrible comments were neither welcome, nor appreciated. everybody is entitled to an opinion but you do not get your opinion across in such a disrespectful way. you are the mother of their grandchildren, you deserve respect, don't forget that.

Really feel for you hwgo
It is hard because although the PIL defintely don't deserve to see the gc, the gc may want to see their gp and it is not fair to punish them for something that is not their problem.
Also it is hard to leave it without trying a really strong united front, just to see if things can be sorted.

If you do go up at Easter agree there have to be some very clear ground rules.
Practice saying very firmly things like
"That topic is not up for discussion thank you"
"Do not shout in front of the children"
"I will not be spoken to like that"
"You are bullying me - stop it"
"What we do as a family is between us, not up to you"

Then changing the subject quickly!

You will just have to suck it up then. Stand by my comment on this total withdrawal is the only way to get them to respect you then treat you properly as an adult deserves to be treated. Nothing else will work believe me.

OP it's clear from your last few posts that you have a an "idee fixe" yourself - that you absolutely must see your inlaws and subject your children to them come what may. That's the choice you've made, so if they continue to abuse you and upset your children then that's your fault. You don't have to go, not at all, you're choosing to.

If they were the type of parents whose own personal lives and choices came to an end when their children arrived, then they will find it very difficult to admit that there may be a different way of doing it, as that would mean admitting that they perhaps could have done it differently too. Also there may be a healthy dose of jealousy in there. Either way, it's their problem and not yours.

What you have to remember though, is that there is very likely nothing that you can do or say that will ever, ever convince them that their opinions might be wrong. You can however refuse to accept the bullying.

In your shoes I think I would tell the FIL before any further visits in no uncertain terms, that while he has a right to hold a different opinion to you, if he ever speaks to you in that way again then it will be the last time you visit them. You are not their child, you are an adult and deserve to be treated with respect. Your DH has been de-sensitized to their behaviour by prolonged exposure, but you can make sure that your own children are not.

Your FIL sounds like a complete wanker frankly, but he's your DH's father and family so I understand why you want to try and improve the relationship. But do not roll over and take this like the rest of the family seem to have done.

Thanks for the supportive comments. I'm afraid I'm sort of ignoring the less balanced comments (yes, I know it's AIBU!). Sorry, but no, I don't think it's appropriate to stop the grandparents from seeing their DC either to 'punish' them or to underline how serious we are about this. I don't want the boys to have to suffer and I don't see how seeing their gps even less than they do now, is going to help them. Clearly it's not on for them to witness anyone being unpleasant to either parent, but from now on, we will have pre-agreed rules and I hope that if anything starts again, saying 'Stop being such a bully' or 'Please don't shout at me in front of the children/at all' will bring him up sharp.

I honestly don't think that causing a massive family feud and divide is going to benefit my sons. Yes, you can say that it's all coming from my PIL, but causing a divide is only going to make my DH and sons unhappy, wheras I think we can work a way round this.

Calin, you aren't at my PIL's house when we visit so you obviously can't possibly appreciate that 'subjecting' my DSs to them involves giving them a lot of attention and cuddles, and presents, and generally making it something DS1 looks forward to. I have gently asked DS1 how he felt about the silly shouting at lunch and I am pretty sure he genuinely didn't have a clue what I was talking about. That's not to say that he didn't absorb it on some level. I don't want to labour it with him because I really don't want to make it an issue if he honestly hasn't been badly affected by it. And if he has, I think it'll come to the surface and DH and I can help him deal with it.

PJmama, thanks for that post - very helpful and I agree.

I think I'm leaving this thread now. Dh and I need to talk, but I don't think I need to rehash it any more. Thanks for the support.

Fair enough OP. If your ILs are horrible to you but lovely to your children then I can see how it might seem worth it.

I think talking to your DH again is a good idea. And setting ground rules is another one. Your DH needs to have the "please do not speak to my wife like that again" conversation.

Next time a touch paper subject comes up I would just try to change the subject and if not possible the do the "we will just have to agree to disagree" thing. Then if FIL tries to carry on you remove yourselves from the situation. It will take time and you will have to carry through on your threats or it won't work.

There is a lovely quote from Eleanor Roosevelt "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." When I had problems with a work colleague I kept it in my handbag and whenever she tried it on, I used to stroke my bag as I sat there with a knowing smile... it drove her up the wall! And after a while I no longer felt inferior...