to feel depressed, angry and diminished because of PIL - again?

[HereWeGoAgainThen]

Namechanged because I wanted to give details and they'll out me.

I have a sticky relationship with PILs ever since we had our two boys (4 and 1.2). Since they were born, we (especially me, but also SIL and her husband) have been very much downgraded, particularly in my MIL's eyes. She doesn't give a hoot about our jobs (this extends to not trying to understand why DH has to work long hours at home, or go on conferences, etc) our aspirations or plans for the future, unless they are exclusively about the DC. This wouldn't be a huge problem for me (I think it's hurting DH though) where it not for the fact that it's constantly brought to the fore.

Last weekend, we were visiting PIL. I dropped into the conversation over lunch the remark that I was hoping to be able to do some fieldwork (I used to be an archaeologist before I shelved my career for various reasons, not least to start a family) abroad for all of 5 days. (We - me and FIL -used to talk about my area of interest before having DC, my FIL seemed genuinely interested and used to ask me a lot about it) As soon as I'd said this, they both laid into me. FIL was more concerned with scoring points off me (he does this at any possible opportunity. I honestly don't know why) because earlier on in the day, DH had been speculating about how to get to a conference in Germany next month, plane or train, and I'd said jokingly (smiley face, laughing) that since I'd be at home with the boys on my own, clearly the fastest way back home would be the most appreciated! FIL took this as double standards on my part - he asked me why it was ok for me to say I didn't want DH to go to Germany (I certainly never said this, and obviously it's fine with me, and part of DH's job) but ok for me to go 'gadding off' to this country to enjoy myself for 5 days. I tried and tried to stop the fight he was trying to pick, but he was off - shouting and ranting and red in the face (this is a very common occurance when we stay with them. It's almost part of the itinerary).

I said as calmly as possible that I didn't choose to argue about it, that it was none of his business and that DH and I had agreed that me going off to do a tiny amount of fieldwork was a good thing on many levels (boosting self-esteem after a long long time out of work, maybe making me look better in terms of employability further down the line, etc), that DH had said it was only fair given the amount of conferences he goes to, and that DH was looking forward to time with his boys. FIL wasn't interested and merely wanted to have the last word. 'No, I'm sorry, HereWeGoAgain, but you've LOST! I'm right and you're in the WRONG and you have LOST. End of' (this is pretty much verbatim.) I tried to say calmly that I didn't think I'd LOST because it was a fight I chose not to have, and didn't want an argument about it.

FIL left the room, leaving MIL to take it up. Her tack is slightly different, because how on earth could I contemplate leaving my lovely boys (yes, even for 5 days) while I went off abroad? (DS2 will be 18 months by then.) She asked if I'd be getting paid? No, it's not that sort of arrangement, it's something you do on a colleagual basis but it's good in other ways. She then said she couldn't understand why on earth I'd leave the children when it wasn't even a matter of 'putting food on the table'. I tried to explain about voluntary work (which I already do some of. I don't think she approves) and about how I just wanted to do something for me. Big mistake. I don't matter, my interests were thrown out of the window the day I had my first baby. She said 'But you made a CHOICE' (as in, you chose to be a SAHM). I asked her why it was ok for DH to go to conferences where he'd have to be away from his children for several nights (he has at least three booked up this year where he'll be as far away as Japan and gone for up to a week) but not ok for me to take 5 days away to do something I was skilled at and might one day get work in? Was she being a tad sexist, perhaps? She said it had nothing to do with that, that DH had to go off because he got paid to go on conferences (he doesn't, not exactly, but she has zero interest in how his career actually works) and because he was the wage earner, and that I'd chosen to stay at home with the children and stay I should. Nothing either DH or I could say about putting in the voluntary work now to possibly reap rewards later would sway her.

There's a lot more to this (this sort of thing happens every time I stay with PIL - as I say, it's almost part of the itinerary) but I can't write it all, it'd be a novel!

I feel (as usual) bruised and utterly diminished by the whole thing. I'm upset because yet again, FIL has decided to shout and rant at me (literally in my face, it's really aggresive) merely to score points off me. And very upset that my MIL seems to be clinging onto her unrealistic 1950's worldview, and that she clearly doesn't care about me as a person at all, only as someone whose one reason for existing is to look after her grandchildren.

I was so angry after it happened that I had to leave the house and kick some grass into submmission. It's not good for me, not for DH who feels horribly torn, not great for DSs because of course this was all in front of them. Does anyone else get this sort of treatment from their PIL? It's a cliche, but it seems that to them, I really am just a vessel! (When I was pregnant the second time, they never, ever asked how I was feeling, only 'how is the baby doing?'. Clearly the baby is the important thing, but I'm more than a plate of chopped liver myself!)

I don't know where to go from here. I had the almost obligatory argument with DH when we got back home, about him supporting me in front of his parents more. It's not doing our relationship any good. It's bad for the boys to see their beloved grandparents shouting and haranging their mother. We have to go back at Easter and at the moment, I feel like running very fast in the opposite direction. But there's no way I want the children going up without me. (And yes, given I'm prepared to leave them with their daddy while I'm off for 5 days, that IS double standards! )

Why do you have to go back for Easter?

Just dont go?

If your husband had any respect for you, he would not want to put you through this! He would not suggest you go, he would make sure you did not have to see these people more than absolutely necessary, such as every three years!

He is not a good husband if h

1. does not defend you
2. let his parent treat you with such contempt and disrespect
3. keep going up there.

He is a pretty SHIT husband (and father, for letting the mother of his children experience this) I would say.

Ok, some good firm advice here.

I will probably go at easter, for the following reasons:
-I sort of agree with Cogito that if I stay away, I'm sending out the message to them that their bullying has had an effect.
-DS1 is desperate to go up again. It's a 3.5 hour trip there and we don't often go up - maybe three times a year? - and they have just moved house (from a nearby village) so that was all exciting to him too. Easter with PIL has become something of a fixture, because it's dates my SIL can get off too, so it's all one big (happy!!) family gathering. And I do share some fellowfeeling with my SIL's husband who also comes in for 'remarks' and bullying.
-DS1 is desperate to see his cousin who will be there. She lives in Scotland and we don't often manage to see them.
-I agree that if DH and I discuss this before we go up and put up a united front, with pre-agreed behaviour (eg. I will leave the room - like I should have done this weekend - if anything starts, we will say 'no shouting in front of the boys', and I will insist on DH taking them to task if they try it again) then it can be a good opportunity to show them that we won't stand for it.
-I don't want the DSs to suffer because their grandparents are silly. At the moment, DS1 is not quite 4 and it mostly goes over his head. As far as he's concerned, his grandparents are quite nice and give him magazines.

So he needs to understand that there is no point trying to justify your family decisions to his parents and actually no need. It really is none of their business. Once he gets that then perhaps he will be able to back you up a bit more.

I really would stop seeing them so much. Perhaps family weddings etc only. I wouldn't stay at their house as it puts you at their mercy if they start having a go at you and you want to leave. It's difficult to do that when you are miles from home with small children and you have nowhere to go. You woud be much better off staying in a hotel/B&B so you can just get up and walk out.

And yes decide on which nights you and DH are going to spend the evening together and not working/MNing. Then stick to it. Even if you just watch tv together or something it's better then being on seperate computers. Especially if you cuddle up.

It soudns like your DH is so used to the way they behave. They argue about everything and it's all winning and losing. He is used to this and so tries to argue for you. It's unneccessary. All he needs to do is make sure you are talked to with respect.

I think there have to be some ground rules set before Easter tbh and your DH has to do that. It sounds like there's a family history of placating your FIL and just letting his nasty, agressive, bullying behaviour was over them. That was probably the best way to deal with it when DH was a child, but he's not a child now.

He should go and see him before Easter and explain that if he shouts at his wife again you will get up and leave, taking the children with you. But he does need to confront this behaviour, and if the behaviour re-occurs you need to follow through on what ever you said you would do. Even if this does mean your DCs don't see their grandparents for a while.

The MIL - meh, of course I don't agree with her but she's actually not your problem, the problem is that you are being bullied by an agressive FIL. Deal with that first.

Cheesy, that sounds pretty familiar! Thing is, they are also like this to DH and SIL - since the babies arrived, they couldn't care less about careers (apart from to jibe at SIL from time to time if MIL thinks the hours she does are too unreasonable - and she works pt!).

The really ODD thing about this is that both PIL worked, more or less all the time, while DH and SIL were children. From a pretty young age, I think. Money was very tight and they had some compliant grandparents round the corner, so the children went to them after school. DH has lovely memories of seeing so much of his gps. So, as DH pointed out, my MIL actually hasn't done the SAHM thing for more than about a year and probably doesn't know or remember how unrelenting it can be. And yes, I bet she was even more tired because she was holding down a fulltime teaching job AND coming home to look after her DC. But she did get time away from the nappies, so to speak. It wouldn't make any difference if this were pointed out though, because they needed the money, and we don't (apparently).

In the nicest way possible I think you're a bit mad to go back for more! And it is naive to say the least, to think it goes over your ds's head - he WILL be taking it in and making his own sense of it. It will not be good for him to be seeing his mother bullied and undermined like that and the more he sees it, the more damage it will do. For me, it would be non-negotiable: treat me with respect and courtesy or I will not allow your tantrums and rants to be inflicted on my children.

It's not for them to decide if you need the money or not. They are allowed much too much room to comment on your life.

"It's none of your business" Is a perfectly decent way to shut them up!

Your children are suffering because their grandparents are nasty and abusive to their mother, in front of them. "No shouting in front of the boys" is a statement that continues to miss the point - they should not be speaking to you like that, regardless of where you are or who it is in front of. Their opinion on your career etc is none of their fecking business and until they can keep their opinions to themselves, they wouldn't be seeing me and I wouldn't be taking my children to see them either.

Sorry but your plan comes across as pretty submissive still. My plan, if I agreed to go at all, would be to get DH to tell them before you even go that if they open their mouths to disrespect any member of the family in any way, you ALL go home and stay there until the distant future, because none of you will stand for it any more.

I agree with Daisy about the influence on your DS.

See, while I agree that FIL is a bully (and I just don't understand why. I do not understand why he's always on the look-out to score points off me. DH has, in the past, said 'Oh, it's his way, ignore it - we all do!' Hmmm) and that I will never, ever convince MIL of my side of things (she famously makes up her mind and that is IT), I do think there's merit in going back up.

I am dreading it but we will go armed with ground rules. One of which will be that if it all kicks off again, we will drive home again. I want the DSs to enjoy a normal relationship with them. They see a lot more of my own parents because they're closer, and DS1, certainly, loves my mother a lot more than any of his other gps, mostly because she makes the effort to play with him and read to him for hours on end, but also because she sees much more of him. I think this is a bit unfair and I would like him to have the chance to establish a closer relationship with his other gps.

Oh and I could suggest we stay at a B&B but it won't wash. PILs moved from a large house to a slightly smaller one but it still has 4 bedrooms. Specifically in order to put both sets of grandchildren and their parents up on occasion. See, I do think this is madness - we hardly ever converge all together, mostly because SIL's work makes it hard for her to get more than a couple of days off together - and they sold their old house in order to free up some capital and downsize - and have ended up in a large 4 bed house! But that's their own problem.

I sort of agree with Cogito that if I stay away, I'm sending out the message to them that their bullying has had an effect.
See, I think they already know that their bullying has had an effect - it has victimised you. For some bullies, that is enough.
By continuing to expose yourself and the kids to the situation, you are putting yourself at risk; you already say that it is making you doubt yourself, affecting the relationship with your husband, hurting your mood and self-esteem. I understand the impulse to not 'give them the satisfaction' of knowing they've got to you...but I think the scenarios you describe go beyond that and you really need to do something more than leaving rooms and taking them to task.

That is why I think that you have two choices - you confront them, firmly, and give them fair warning that you just won't put up with it. Maybe that will work, but honestly, it sounds like this behaviour is so deeply ingrained with them that it probably won't change.
Which leaves you with option 2 - when you can't change a situation, you can only remove yourself from it. I honestly don't think another room in the same house is going to be far enough. :(

No flies on your SIL - how lucky for her and her family that she finds it hard to get time off work to spend at your ILs . Perhaps she is being diplomatic?

Oh god, am I still coming across as submissive? I used to be stronger than this! I think of myself as a feminist.... Not exactly living it, am I?

I am v worried about how DS1 is seeing this. I was last summer, when we were stuck (FIL, MIL, DSs and I) in their car on the motorway and DS2 started crying inconsolably. I was right next to him but he hated the car so much that even sitting beside him wasn't helping. rather than decide to come off the motorway so I could give him some milk, FIL started a non-directed rant (not directed at me at that point, I mean) about the 'rubbish' laws in this country regarding car seats, and that surely any sane person would see that a baby needs its mummy and for its mummy to pick it up, regardless of being in the car. I said, alarmed, that this was surely a Bad Idea, in fact a crazy one. FIL took off on one, saying 'No, YOU'RE the crazy one! I know what I'm talking about, I've been driving for 45 years and have raised two children. You HAVEN'T!' etc, etc. We were stuck in the car in the fast lane. We couldn't get out. I couldn't walk away. In retrospect I should have just let him rant and buttoned my lip (clear safety issue about having a barney in a fast moving car, after all!) but I didn't. DS1 was listening to some of it (he'd been asleep) and I'm sure he was affected. God, I hope he doesn't remember.

Oh and I could suggest we stay at a B&B but it won't wash.

Wash with who? You are still trying to justify everything you do to them. You CAN stay in a B&B. It's not their choice it's yours. If you want to give a reason (which you don't have to do) you can say it's because of how uncomfortable their behaviour made you feel last time. They can't disagree with that. They can't say you didn't feel uncomfortable as that was your feeling, not theirs.

As for I sort of agree with Cogito that if I stay away, I'm sending out the message to them that their bullying has had an effect. . . . I don't really understand this. Yes they have bullied you and treated you badly . . . and it HAS had an effect! By going anyway you are protecting them from the consequences of their behaviour. AND lining yourself up for more of the same.

Sorry, cross-posted with you there...
Oh and I could suggest we stay at a B&B but it won't wash

Ok, this is an idea. And would also be a good way to start to reassert yourself in this family. After all, it is up to you and your DH where you stay. Not them. The fact that you are dismissing the idea of a B&B beacsue they would not like it *(and maybe because your DH would find it tough to assert this with them?) is very telling - it is one more area in which they are bullying you both.

I am dreading it but we will go armed with ground rules. One of which will be that if it all kicks off again, we will drive home again
Will you have told PILS this ahead of time?
And will you be able to stick to it? What if DH refuses? Or the kids get upset? Are you going to be able to get up and walk out and put yourself and the kids in the car and drive away? If you are sure that you can do that, it might work.

Ah, no, Piperabbit. SIL lives a good trek away and has often 'summoned' her parents to come up and fill in for childcare when her childminder has fallen through. This was mostly when PIL were in better health (here's some drip-drip for you - PIL has a recently diagnosed stomach ulcer again and MIL is on waiting list for surgery for angina - so I feel particularly great about sparring with elderly people who are not at all well, regardless of whether they chose to start the fight) but they do still occasionally trek all the way up there. She would have loved it if they'd decided to resettle up there, close to her, so they could see her DD a lot more. Her DD's other grandparent hardly ever bothers to see her granddaughter.

So SIL issue is complex and frankly, entirely their/her problem! I keep well out.

They have you twisted around their little finger haven't they?

You are making excuses for them. You cant even stay in a b&b, "because it wont wash".
It is a shame how you dont see how toxic this is, and that your dh is supporting them (sorry, but he is).

How about growing a spine? Tell dh that he has to say to his parents, "look WE wont be coming because we have had enough of FIL shouting and picking arguments with my wife. I dont like it and she does not like it, so we are choosing not to come"

Why on earth put yourself through this?

Reading what you say is like reading any domestic abuse thread, where the battered wife is trying to list the good things about her husband/marriage, trying to defend him and her decision to not leave. It is very sad reading indeed. They have this hold over you, and they are your flippin inlaws!

It makes me wonder how far the apple is from the tree regards your husbands treatment of you. How come you have become so emotionally battered, and lack such self esteem?

you don't have to go at easter

you don't have to volunteer up information about your life

you don't have to allow them into your life at all (or your DCs) until they learn how to respect you

it really is that simple.

I remember tge car incident

You don't need their permission or approval to do anything. I can't believe just how ride they are. I would suggest not being drawn into an argument however difficult it is and just say once it is tge decision sh and I have made thank you for your opinion.

if I stay away, I'm sending out the message to them that their bullying has had an effect

Well yes, it has had the effect that you wont tolerate their behaviour!! It certainly doesnt mean they have won. If anything, I would say by going back there, you are allowing their bullying to go unchecked.

They sound obnoxious, and have no "rights" to your company or even that of your children. Let your husband go, let him take the kids if he has to, but stay away. You do not owe them anything, and they certainly dont sound as though they deserve your company.

Well their ill-health is surely a great excuse not to stay in their house - we couldn't possibly impose on you at this time - although this is obviously not the main point.

I remember you posting about the motorway incident before Did anything change after the advice on that thread? Not a snarky question, just don't remember absolutely everything :)

Quint, thank you for your concern and advice but please believe me when I say that I am in no way a submissive wife, battered by DH in any way (emotionally, physically, etc)! I am just trying to be balanced about PIL, which they never do. Am trying to take the moral high ground/be fairer to them than they are to me. But do believe me, I have had enough of it and will be making some changes. DH is honestly not the controlling bully you seem to think he is (it's making me laugh!).

Brass, I think what you say is right - I don't have to volunteer information about my/our lives. I have a good friend who is always on at me about 'gatekeeping'. She's right. If you think it'll lay you vunerable to attack, no matter how unjustified, don't give them any ammo. I should just accept that conversations with my in-laws must be restricted to the weather, and not take in any contentious issues like recycling, buying organic veg, car seat laws or immigration. Or working on christmas day. (all things that have lit FIL's blue touchpaper in the past!)

Oh god, I knew someone would remember the motorway incident! Um, well in terms of has anything changed - I haven't again given them the opportunity to drive either DS without me. They used to take him off for an afternoon (DS1) and give me some time with DS2, or just to sleep (which was nice for both parties) but on the one occasion they came down here since the Motorway Incident, I very pointedly didn't let this happen. And it won't again. They've shown me that they don't take car seat safety seriously. They lost their driving GC alone priviledges.

Your experience has strands of similarity with my own relationship with the in laws - although it has never crossed the line into aggression or bullying, just very annoying!

We've all outgrown it by dh and I simply not telling them the ins and outs of our life other than the inane stuff. We now have a very friendly relationship without tension. The subject of whether you do paid or unpaid work, leave the Dc's for a few days or not is none of their business whatsoever so I would prepare a very vague and non commital response which tells them nothing about this or any other contentious issues and move on quickly. You won't convince them and it's completely irrelevant to your life if they agree or not.

I used to feel I had to debate these decisions with them but it suddenly dawned on me that my reaction said more about my need for validation and approval.

One of our issues with FIL was money - it took DH a while to get his head around not having to tell his mum and dad everything we purchased, didn't purchase etc but he's become an expert now he's realised how calm the relationship can be!

Having not yet read all the thread (but I will!), whichever poster said 'Don't volunteer' is exactly right.
Can you manage to keep all conversations light and non-confrontational? on't tell them your plans, just live your lives as you wish?
And if visits continue to be so stressful, maybe they'll have to be limited as well, and if they want to know why, then maybe they'll have to be told.

Can you have a conversation with your DH about 'strategy' when it's not following a difficult visit? When emotions therefore aren't running high?
And to be honest, I don't think he should be 'torn', I think he needs to present a united front with you. These decisions are joint and should be presented as such.