to feel depressed, angry and diminished because of PIL - again?

[HereWeGoAgainThen]

Namechanged because I wanted to give details and they'll out me.

I have a sticky relationship with PILs ever since we had our two boys (4 and 1.2). Since they were born, we (especially me, but also SIL and her husband) have been very much downgraded, particularly in my MIL's eyes. She doesn't give a hoot about our jobs (this extends to not trying to understand why DH has to work long hours at home, or go on conferences, etc) our aspirations or plans for the future, unless they are exclusively about the DC. This wouldn't be a huge problem for me (I think it's hurting DH though) where it not for the fact that it's constantly brought to the fore.

Last weekend, we were visiting PIL. I dropped into the conversation over lunch the remark that I was hoping to be able to do some fieldwork (I used to be an archaeologist before I shelved my career for various reasons, not least to start a family) abroad for all of 5 days. (We - me and FIL -used to talk about my area of interest before having DC, my FIL seemed genuinely interested and used to ask me a lot about it) As soon as I'd said this, they both laid into me. FIL was more concerned with scoring points off me (he does this at any possible opportunity. I honestly don't know why) because earlier on in the day, DH had been speculating about how to get to a conference in Germany next month, plane or train, and I'd said jokingly (smiley face, laughing) that since I'd be at home with the boys on my own, clearly the fastest way back home would be the most appreciated! FIL took this as double standards on my part - he asked me why it was ok for me to say I didn't want DH to go to Germany (I certainly never said this, and obviously it's fine with me, and part of DH's job) but ok for me to go 'gadding off' to this country to enjoy myself for 5 days. I tried and tried to stop the fight he was trying to pick, but he was off - shouting and ranting and red in the face (this is a very common occurance when we stay with them. It's almost part of the itinerary).

I said as calmly as possible that I didn't choose to argue about it, that it was none of his business and that DH and I had agreed that me going off to do a tiny amount of fieldwork was a good thing on many levels (boosting self-esteem after a long long time out of work, maybe making me look better in terms of employability further down the line, etc), that DH had said it was only fair given the amount of conferences he goes to, and that DH was looking forward to time with his boys. FIL wasn't interested and merely wanted to have the last word. 'No, I'm sorry, HereWeGoAgain, but you've LOST! I'm right and you're in the WRONG and you have LOST. End of' (this is pretty much verbatim.) I tried to say calmly that I didn't think I'd LOST because it was a fight I chose not to have, and didn't want an argument about it.

FIL left the room, leaving MIL to take it up. Her tack is slightly different, because how on earth could I contemplate leaving my lovely boys (yes, even for 5 days) while I went off abroad? (DS2 will be 18 months by then.) She asked if I'd be getting paid? No, it's not that sort of arrangement, it's something you do on a colleagual basis but it's good in other ways. She then said she couldn't understand why on earth I'd leave the children when it wasn't even a matter of 'putting food on the table'. I tried to explain about voluntary work (which I already do some of. I don't think she approves) and about how I just wanted to do something for me. Big mistake. I don't matter, my interests were thrown out of the window the day I had my first baby. She said 'But you made a CHOICE' (as in, you chose to be a SAHM). I asked her why it was ok for DH to go to conferences where he'd have to be away from his children for several nights (he has at least three booked up this year where he'll be as far away as Japan and gone for up to a week) but not ok for me to take 5 days away to do something I was skilled at and might one day get work in? Was she being a tad sexist, perhaps? She said it had nothing to do with that, that DH had to go off because he got paid to go on conferences (he doesn't, not exactly, but she has zero interest in how his career actually works) and because he was the wage earner, and that I'd chosen to stay at home with the children and stay I should. Nothing either DH or I could say about putting in the voluntary work now to possibly reap rewards later would sway her.

There's a lot more to this (this sort of thing happens every time I stay with PIL - as I say, it's almost part of the itinerary) but I can't write it all, it'd be a novel!

I feel (as usual) bruised and utterly diminished by the whole thing. I'm upset because yet again, FIL has decided to shout and rant at me (literally in my face, it's really aggresive) merely to score points off me. And very upset that my MIL seems to be clinging onto her unrealistic 1950's worldview, and that she clearly doesn't care about me as a person at all, only as someone whose one reason for existing is to look after her grandchildren.

I was so angry after it happened that I had to leave the house and kick some grass into submmission. It's not good for me, not for DH who feels horribly torn, not great for DSs because of course this was all in front of them. Does anyone else get this sort of treatment from their PIL? It's a cliche, but it seems that to them, I really am just a vessel! (When I was pregnant the second time, they never, ever asked how I was feeling, only 'how is the baby doing?'. Clearly the baby is the important thing, but I'm more than a plate of chopped liver myself!)

I don't know where to go from here. I had the almost obligatory argument with DH when we got back home, about him supporting me in front of his parents more. It's not doing our relationship any good. It's bad for the boys to see their beloved grandparents shouting and haranging their mother. We have to go back at Easter and at the moment, I feel like running very fast in the opposite direction. But there's no way I want the children going up without me. (And yes, given I'm prepared to leave them with their daddy while I'm off for 5 days, that IS double standards! )

I came out of lurkdom to respond... sorry it is long, Hope it helps.

I had a similar problem. Things came to a big head when we were holidaying in Ireland with ILs. Prior to that DH thought that both of us fed the disagreements and it was because we had such different attitudes. He didn't see me trying so hard to make things work, he thought I was stirring the pot and giving it back.

Finally we were in a coffee shop in Dublin, I was sick as a dog and trying hard to be upright. I was struggling to find something to talk about with MIL as FIL tried to pick a fight. She has travelled in Israel so I asked her what her take was on the troubles between Israel and Palestine. I said that I felt our media (I'm in the US but from the UK originally) was very biased on this issue and would appreciate her take on it (and was generally interested in what she had to say on the issue). She started to answer and FIL (at the other end of the table) butted in and made some totally out of line and irrelevant comment about US politics and shut down the conversation. DH finally saw that he was trying to pick a fight and was somewhat shocked.

The next day we were in a posh hotel having tea, FIL once again picked a fight. I tried calmly to defend myself but finally had it and said "That's enough, I've had enough, I'm leaving". Grabbed kids and bags and got up. DH sat their fish mouth and I snapped "are you coming?" and stomped out with DH still fish mouth and trailing behind.

As we sat in the car I said to DH "they now think you agree with the way he acted and only came with me because I made you." He replied that they were wrong and shakily (it was really hard for him) went back and told them that they had it all wrong.

Back home in the US we decided to write them a letter from him (no way he would have the gumption to their face). It said something along the lines that they may not like me or like my views or agree with our choices but if we were to spend time together they had to respect us. That by being disrespectful to me (especially in front of the children) they were being disrespectful of him as well. That he knew that they loved him and he loved them but he was not going to allow this to treat his wife this way. He needed a lot of help writing the letter, it was really tough for him.

We did not see or hear from them for a year. My DH was still angry and hurt and was determined that he was done with them. I still wanted a relationship of some sort to continue because I could see that they loved him and the boys. So when we planned a trip over (DHs old company used to pay for an annual trip home) I insisted that he write to them. He told them that were were visiting England in a few weeks. That our feelings hadn't changed on the subject but if they were agreeable then we would very much like to spend some time with them.

They wrote back a very polite email saying they were keen to see us. We went up there and stayed in a B&B nearby instead of their house. They were polite and kind, if a little distant to me and warm and friendly with the boys... NO FIGHTING, no snide asides. My boys remember that visit very fondly even though it was some years ago now. Since then they have come for a visit. I bent over backwards to accommodate them and they had a great time.

I am SOOO glad we stood up to them and said something.

Gosh - honestly if my husband heard his father speak to me like that he would either intercede (if I needed the help) or more likely be vastly amazed that I kept my temper. We certainly would not go back for deserts. You DH needs to step up to the plate and bl88dy well stick up for you......he needs to stop acting like the child in this relationship (with his parents) and act like the adult he is.

My mil has been like that towards me. There is a reason why she has not seen us for 3 years now! My dh does not want to put me through visiting her.

I'm not sure that framing this in terms of 'winning' or 'losing' (in terms of how returning at Easter will present) is that helpful. I definitely agree that if you do visit again, you need to have a firm agreement in place with dh re how you will present a unanimous front if pil/mil start again. I did wonder if there'd be some value in you (rather than dh, or maybe a 'joint' phone call?)ringing them in advance of any further visits - or as a postscript to this one? - to warn both that you were deeply unhappy with thir behaviour toward you and in front of dc's, and to advise of consequences if it happens again, ie leaving immediately, no further visits etc. Gives you a chance to reassert control, something for pil/mil to mull over, and they can't simply dismiss dh, if they've been prone to this in the past?

Sounds like you are enabling them OP with your wishy washy views on this. I have sort of similar problems with family when visiting and yes I have dragged the kids out of bed first thing in the morning, packed and left, I have decided that I will no longer put myself and my children in that vulnerable position again but will stay at a hotel in future, if and when I decide to go back. I really don't know why you bothered bringing this up as you are prepared to go back for more of the same.

I was going to write a long post, but seeing as you have left the thread and are not willing to actually do anything to change the situation, I will just say that I had a similar problem with my PIL and my DH has never and would never let anyone speak to me like that no matter what the consequences or how difficult he found confronting them

I think it is interesting that your DH was choking when this was all going on.

I wonder if his literal choking was emotional choking as well. a physical reaction to emotional overload. Maybe they are doing to you what they have always done to him.

My DH hates confrontation and had to stand up for me once with his father. Things were very strained for a long time but it was the best thing ever as a clear boundary was established.

Hope you find a way to move forward.

'Weirdos' - really?

People treat you the way you let them treat you.

What weirdos?!

I am confused as to why you allowed them to draw you into a conversation which (based on past experience) you knew would end in confrontation. You are effectively trying to engage a tantruming toddler in a rational conversation, when the best responses to tantrums are ignoring or distracting.

I think you need to practise sentences to cut off the conversation. And accept that there are subject that can't be discussed, so avoid raising them in the first place. In my family there are some things that are only discussed on a need to know basis with certain family members (not because of arguments but because it gets spread amongst the whole family).

PIL would seem to be totally unshakable in their belief that they can be as aggressive as they like towards you, because you'll just keep taking everything they dish out and come back for more. It would appear that they're right- there have been no consequences for their actions, and you seem unwilling to take steps to change things.

I expect op'll be back after Easter with another thread about her nutter pil and will ignore the advice given on that one too.

My ex's mum was very anti working mothers. I just sidestepped the subject/ changed the subject if it ever came up. We were never going to change each others minds, arguing is pointless.
I would keep future discussions with them to a minimum and tell them very little of your plans etc.
Your husband should be backing you up though. He needs to tell his parents to stop bullying guests and tell them their behaviour has upset you.
As the kids get older their tactics will adversely affect the relationship with their grandchildren.
If your husband could choke on a sausage throughout the argument I presume it either wasn't a very long argument or you all should have been paying more attention to the blue bloke choking on a sausage.
He could have said "if you are going to bully my wife who is a guest in your house we will go home" though.

Oh for fuck's sake, why did you post if you're not prepared to read the advice! Yet another depressing thread where children are exposed to abuse (yes, ranting is abusive) because the misguided mother thinks it's still in their best interests to have contact.

"Thanks for the supportive comments. I'm afraid I'm sort of ignoring the less balanced comments (yes, I know it's AIBU!). Sorry, but no, I don't think it's appropriate to stop the grandparents from seeing their DC either to 'punish' them or to underline how serious we are about this. I don't want the boys to have to suffer and I don't see how seeing their gps even less than they do now, is going to help them. Clearly it's not on for them to witness anyone being unpleasant to either parent, but from now on, we will have pre-agreed rules and I hope that if anything starts again, saying 'Stop being such a bully' or 'Please don't shout at me in front of the children/at all' will bring him up sharp."

Well Op just suck it up and go back for more then. What was your plan again, just to move to another room, that'll show 'em. There you go you can lump this in with the 'unbalanced comments'.

"I don't think it's appropriate to stop the grandparents from seeing their DC either to 'punish' them or to underline how serious we are about this."

I thought the idea behind not seeing the ILs was to protect the children from their atrocious bullying behaviour.

I'd be a bit concerned that the DCs will see the drama playing out infront of them as a lesson in how they should handle bullies - but it's clearly not effective. What I mean is I'd worry you're setting them up to be doormats allow themselves to be pushed around, as you are being, once they get to school?

Tbqh I'd have walked out if I was being shouted at like that, and would have told them we'd be back when they were feeling less aggressive and more welcoming, dinner on the table or not.

And no wonder FIL has a stomach ulcer, bloody hell :o

Another one here wondering why you started the thread - and then talk yourself into carrying on as before?

Your dh thinks it's normal for his Father to aggressively rant in his wife's face. It doesn't matter how lovely and supportive he is generally, he did not support you in that instance and he handled it badly.

What business is it of theirs? And these are your inlaws, not even your own parents, which would be bad enough. Jeesh!

Get something sorted about this gagging, if he won't then go to the GP with him. He might say it is nothing because the GP has hinted that it is psychosomatic, which some people interpret as "just pull your socks up". Especially if he has been raised in this bullying environment.
What exactly are the kids getting out of the visits? Maybe you can reduce the time? Go out for lunch so they have to behave (the Grandparents not the kids).
You kids cannot witness this unchallenged, as it shows them that we give in to bullies. If they try to argue, you may have to stop the conversation, and if they won't stop, then leave, as it is inappropriate behaviour in front of the kids. You need to interact with them as an adult, and not allow it to slip into either of you acting like parents or children.

I am afraid I will never ever understand why people don't want to improve their lives and the lives of their DC.

They know there is a problem. They set it out at length. Then they do absolutely nothing.

It is fascinating nihilism no?

You kids cannot witness this unchallenged, as it shows them that we give in to bullies. If they try to argue, you may have to stop the conversation, and if they won't stop, then leave, as it is inappropriate behaviour in front of the kids. You need to interact with them as an adult, and not allow it to slip into either of you acting like parents or children.

This, totally.