to feel depressed, angry and diminished because of PIL - again?

[HereWeGoAgainThen]

Namechanged because I wanted to give details and they'll out me.

I have a sticky relationship with PILs ever since we had our two boys (4 and 1.2). Since they were born, we (especially me, but also SIL and her husband) have been very much downgraded, particularly in my MIL's eyes. She doesn't give a hoot about our jobs (this extends to not trying to understand why DH has to work long hours at home, or go on conferences, etc) our aspirations or plans for the future, unless they are exclusively about the DC. This wouldn't be a huge problem for me (I think it's hurting DH though) where it not for the fact that it's constantly brought to the fore.

Last weekend, we were visiting PIL. I dropped into the conversation over lunch the remark that I was hoping to be able to do some fieldwork (I used to be an archaeologist before I shelved my career for various reasons, not least to start a family) abroad for all of 5 days. (We - me and FIL -used to talk about my area of interest before having DC, my FIL seemed genuinely interested and used to ask me a lot about it) As soon as I'd said this, they both laid into me. FIL was more concerned with scoring points off me (he does this at any possible opportunity. I honestly don't know why) because earlier on in the day, DH had been speculating about how to get to a conference in Germany next month, plane or train, and I'd said jokingly (smiley face, laughing) that since I'd be at home with the boys on my own, clearly the fastest way back home would be the most appreciated! FIL took this as double standards on my part - he asked me why it was ok for me to say I didn't want DH to go to Germany (I certainly never said this, and obviously it's fine with me, and part of DH's job) but ok for me to go 'gadding off' to this country to enjoy myself for 5 days. I tried and tried to stop the fight he was trying to pick, but he was off - shouting and ranting and red in the face (this is a very common occurance when we stay with them. It's almost part of the itinerary).

I said as calmly as possible that I didn't choose to argue about it, that it was none of his business and that DH and I had agreed that me going off to do a tiny amount of fieldwork was a good thing on many levels (boosting self-esteem after a long long time out of work, maybe making me look better in terms of employability further down the line, etc), that DH had said it was only fair given the amount of conferences he goes to, and that DH was looking forward to time with his boys. FIL wasn't interested and merely wanted to have the last word. 'No, I'm sorry, HereWeGoAgain, but you've LOST! I'm right and you're in the WRONG and you have LOST. End of' (this is pretty much verbatim.) I tried to say calmly that I didn't think I'd LOST because it was a fight I chose not to have, and didn't want an argument about it.

FIL left the room, leaving MIL to take it up. Her tack is slightly different, because how on earth could I contemplate leaving my lovely boys (yes, even for 5 days) while I went off abroad? (DS2 will be 18 months by then.) She asked if I'd be getting paid? No, it's not that sort of arrangement, it's something you do on a colleagual basis but it's good in other ways. She then said she couldn't understand why on earth I'd leave the children when it wasn't even a matter of 'putting food on the table'. I tried to explain about voluntary work (which I already do some of. I don't think she approves) and about how I just wanted to do something for me. Big mistake. I don't matter, my interests were thrown out of the window the day I had my first baby. She said 'But you made a CHOICE' (as in, you chose to be a SAHM). I asked her why it was ok for DH to go to conferences where he'd have to be away from his children for several nights (he has at least three booked up this year where he'll be as far away as Japan and gone for up to a week) but not ok for me to take 5 days away to do something I was skilled at and might one day get work in? Was she being a tad sexist, perhaps? She said it had nothing to do with that, that DH had to go off because he got paid to go on conferences (he doesn't, not exactly, but she has zero interest in how his career actually works) and because he was the wage earner, and that I'd chosen to stay at home with the children and stay I should. Nothing either DH or I could say about putting in the voluntary work now to possibly reap rewards later would sway her.

There's a lot more to this (this sort of thing happens every time I stay with PIL - as I say, it's almost part of the itinerary) but I can't write it all, it'd be a novel!

I feel (as usual) bruised and utterly diminished by the whole thing. I'm upset because yet again, FIL has decided to shout and rant at me (literally in my face, it's really aggresive) merely to score points off me. And very upset that my MIL seems to be clinging onto her unrealistic 1950's worldview, and that she clearly doesn't care about me as a person at all, only as someone whose one reason for existing is to look after her grandchildren.

I was so angry after it happened that I had to leave the house and kick some grass into submmission. It's not good for me, not for DH who feels horribly torn, not great for DSs because of course this was all in front of them. Does anyone else get this sort of treatment from their PIL? It's a cliche, but it seems that to them, I really am just a vessel! (When I was pregnant the second time, they never, ever asked how I was feeling, only 'how is the baby doing?'. Clearly the baby is the important thing, but I'm more than a plate of chopped liver myself!)

I don't know where to go from here. I had the almost obligatory argument with DH when we got back home, about him supporting me in front of his parents more. It's not doing our relationship any good. It's bad for the boys to see their beloved grandparents shouting and haranging their mother. We have to go back at Easter and at the moment, I feel like running very fast in the opposite direction. But there's no way I want the children going up without me. (And yes, given I'm prepared to leave them with their daddy while I'm off for 5 days, that IS double standards! )

But no, SecondRow, if you mean has anything changed re. FIL's attitude to me, then no. As my namechange should tell you. Here we bloody go again...

It IS my fault, isn't it? Not in a submissive, 'oh it must be my fault because I'm worthless' way, but because I am an autonymous adult, and put myself in this position (AGAIN), and should have seen this coming. I need to be tough about it. I do, incidentally, think that leaving the room calmly but pointedly, as soon as FIL starts ranting, is an effective way of dealing, because it says very clearly, I do not choose to engage with you, and I'm not great at saying that to his face. Either I rise to the bait and argue back (pointless and nasty for DSs) or I try to state that I don't want to argue and am ignored, as happened this time.

Ok. Great advice here. I think the crux is my relationship with DH. He loves me very much, I love him. He treats me, always, with respect. I do not always treat him with consideration, in that I often forget something pertinent if I'm having a go at him. But there are problems here. And I think we need to spend more time cuddling and less time on the sodding internet. I need to talk calmly with him tonight (e.g. without bursting into tears) about ground rules, one of which will HAVE to be, if it happens again, we will leave. And no, I'm not entirely sure I have the wherewithal to take the boys and drive off home, if DH drags his heels, so I will have to make it absolutely clear that we have to be united on that.

By continuing to expose yourself and the kids to the situation, you are putting yourself at risk; you already say that it is making you doubt yourself, affecting the relationship with your husband, hurting your mood and self-esteem. I understand the impulse to not 'give them the satisfaction' of knowing they've got to you...but I think the scenarios you describe go beyond that and you really need to do something more than leaving rooms and taking them to task.

I agree.

Re the car incident . . . that's really scary!

Well that's great, you did stand up to them effectively on that point. So next question, did DH back you up to a satisfactory degree on the car seat point? Because if you are going to go and see them, it looks like DH must firstly fully understand your perspective, and then take the lead role in managing them. What if you have a code word so that if you feel bullied, you say it to DH and maybe leave the room, and he has to jump in with "Mum, Dad, you are criticising our family decisions again and DW in particular, and we are not going to discuss it any further with you. Either you drop this topic or we are getting in the car and leaving".... and then follow through. Would he do it?

see if it were me I would have reared up the first time it happened and gone the rounds with whoever was dishing it out.

so I don't understand all the copping out and making excuses. After the car incident why hasn't it been sorted? why are you still in this position?

I'd have no problems with my DC seeing me stand up to anyone. I wouldn't let the DC for one second think someone could get away with speaking to me like that. Children need to see you fight your corner so they can trust you will be able to fight theirs if the situation ever arises. Otherwise, yes you are being terribly submissive. And the children are seeing that.

Cross posted... yes I think you need to start now, well before Easter, establishing the full set of rules. It will be hard for him because he's presumably been subject to the force of their wills all his life, but he has to get into the habit of putting his family - you and the boys - first now.

NannyOgg, and HowardsWay, thanks. Yes, I think a conversation with DH once it's less raw would be a good thing, EXCEPT that it'll have diminished in importance in his eyes by then.

And yy to keeping all future converstations with PIL light. As I say, weather and their garden, and that's it. (Better stay off issues like hosepipe bans.)

You know, one odd thing about my PIL is he swings very strangely between trying to impress or interest me, and wanting to spar with me. He will bring up into conversation something he thinks I'll be interested in, like some local history thing, or the fact that (OMG) they are finally consenting to recycle some of their waste (yup, you guessed it, previous 'encounters' have been because they, or FIL, are aggressively anti-recycling and, well, I'm not). And then he'll drop a deliberate lure into the water - something inflamatory about a local council making a 'loony' decision or similar. Very, very odd. I think, deep down, he's very confused about whether to like me or make me an enemy.

Ok. Boring conversational gambits, anyone?

They sound horrid.

Do they bring anything to your lives at all? Do you need them or owe them anything?

If no, I would drop them like a stone, and maybe write or call them to tell them why. What business is it of theirs whether you go on a dig for 5 days?, it doesn't affect them in any way does it?

Btw, I totally understand the reasons for the dig, and think it's a fantastic way of getting back into your career. Good luck!

they are just not normal and not the type of people you should encourage around dc -if you do see them again then keep a video recorder handy and capture their behaviour on tape - then send it to them as explanation for your cutting them out of your life!

There are some things that we put up with from parents & ILs that we wouldn´t from anyone else, that´s for sure.

But this is way beyond that imo.

If your husband wants to go at Easter I´d let him.

But I wouldn´t subject myself or the children to it.

but why walk on eggshells around your DH? you say you are not submissive and then all the flannel about how to broach the subject.

they were rude to you, do not show any respect in how they speak to you, you are clearly offended and upset by their behaviour and yet YET you're wondering how to speak to your DH about it.

this implies he also doesn't respect you, can you see that? if he did, he wouldn't allow his parents to do that knowing how it makes YOU feel.

^"I will probably go at easter, for the following reasons:
-I sort of agree with Cogito that if I stay away, I'm sending out the message to them that their bullying has had an effect."^
I disagree. By going back again and again, the message you are sending is that their behaviour is acceptable to you.
"-DS1 is desperate to go up again. It's a 3.5 hour trip there and we don't often go up - maybe three times a year? - and they have just moved house (from a nearby village) so that was all exciting to him too. Easter with PIL has become something of a fixture, because it's dates my SIL can get off too, so it's all one big (happy!!) family gathering. And I do share some fellowfeeling with my SIL's husband who also comes in for 'remarks' and bullying."
DS1 is 4. He does not get to make decisions for the whole family, no 4 year old is competent to do that.And I really don't see how it can be good for him to witness his grandparents disrespecting his mother so. What is that teaching him? And if your SIL can get the time off too, invite hen and her family to visit you and not her atrocious parents. You could all have a lovely time together, however crowded.
"-DS1 is desperate to see his cousin who will be there. She lives in Scotland and we don't often manage to see them."
Sorted, if you invite SIL to yours.
^"-I agree that if DH and I discuss this before we go up and put up a united front, with pre-agreed behaviour (eg. I will leave the room - like I should have done this weekend - if anything starts, we will say 'no shouting in front of the boys', and I will insist on DH taking them to task if they try it again) then it can be a good opportunity to show them that we won't stand for it."
But going again shows that you will stand for it (as you have before). Far better to show them you've had enough and it is time for them to change their ways.
"-I don't want the DSs to suffer because their grandparents are silly. At the moment, DS1 is not quite 4 and it mostly goes over his head. As far as he's concerned, his grandparents are quite nice and give him magazines."
I think you're kidding yourself on this one a bit. It won't be long before he does notice, and you can't be sure he hasn't already but has learnt from you and your DH to sweep it aside. "(DH has, in the past, said 'Oh, it's his way, ignore it - we all do!' Hmmm)"

Seriously - just don't go.

ohhh that fil the motorway fil.

in that case you were being unreasonable to be there at all. I think you have given them enough chances. please don't go again, for your sake and your childrens sake. he is a rude bully and you need to distance yourself and the children from them.

I should just accept that conversations with my in-laws must be restricted to the weather, and not take in any contentious issues like recycling, buying organic veg, car seat laws or immigration. Or working on christmas day.

What a nightmare! I try to do this with my ILs but I talk a lot and find it hard not to say stuff!

As for the driving, it's not just the car seat that is the issue but that the person on control of the car was in a massive temper! That's very dangerous by itself.

ps if you go and do the leave the room tactic it should be all of you leaving the room.

Also - pack all bags ready to leave each morning so if it does get out of hand you can make the quick exit straight away - even if you get a hotel and sil and cousin can come and see you seperate to pils so dc don't miss out

brass but why walk on eggshells around your DH? you say you are not submissive and then all the flannel about how to broach the subject. they were rude to you, do not show any respect in how they speak to you, you are clearly offended and upset by their behaviour and yet YET you're wondering how to speak to your DH about it. this implies he also doesn't respect you, can you see that? if he did, he wouldn't allow his parents to do that knowing how it makes YOU feel.

I can understand this. We have similar with my ILs. My DH has had it his whole life and seems to have been taught by them that it is not acceptable for him to stick up for himself, be assertive with them. Sometimes it feels as though he thinks he will lose their love if he so much as says a single word they might disagree with. Sometimes these things go very deep.

I know this will come across harshly but I think you're being a total and utter mug. What are you getting out of being around your inlaws? It makes you all feel like shit and yet you persist in doing it. It is absolutely ridiculous to think that a four year old can't pick up on the fact that his mother is being shouted at by his grandfather. Do you think that's a good environment for a child to be in? If they are so nasty to their own child and his wife, why do think in the long run they're going to be any nicer to your children? They won't thank you for exposing them to relatives like this.

Your DH is letting you down. Hugely. I know that might be due to the fact that he's had a lifetime of kowtowing to this pair of loonies, but really it's no excuse. I totally believe you that he is loving and caring at home, but when it really counts, when you're actually being attacked, he does not stand up for you, and that says a lot. Why does he expect you to keep seeing people who clearly hate you? He needs to stop sitting on the fence and realise that his first loyalty is to you and his children and to stop putting their feelings over yours. If my DH behaved the way yours has I would be so angry at him it would really affect our relationship. In fact, over time I think it would erode my respect for him so much that it would be difficult to get it back.

They may be ill, but that doesn't give them any more right than anyone else to treat you horribly. Yet, you seem determined to go back for more, so if the same happens again I don't think there's any point in complaining.

I think you have had lots of good advise here. The main things to remember are-

For you and DH to talk and agree how you will handle these rants, if they happen again. I think a sharp "we do not wish to discuss this" followed by removing yourself/DC from the room/house should do the trick.
If they continue to rant you warn them you will all leave.

You do not offer any information which you know will spark a rant. You have no obligation to tell them anything. You/DH have good reasons for wanting to keep going to stay with them, so you do need to limit any info you give them, about how you choose to arrange your life.

Tell DH that unless he supports you and you work as a team, then the time will come when you won't want you or DC to go and visit.

Also your PIL sound barking mad and sodding rude!

Don't go.

I remember the motorway incident.

I can't believe you went back for more after that. spare yourself the misery. Seriously.

Many sympathies. Have had some of the same issues, except I am the DD and DH is the SIL. My father was v rude to my DH. I did walk away. Luckily, my SIL had taken all the DC back to our house as lots of stuff kicked off.

My father knows that he may not be rude at all to DH or we will walk away. This will upset DM, but that's up to her, I'm afraid. DC and DH are my immediate family now.

I wouldn't go up at Easter. I would find another time to see SIL and the cousin/s unless this has already been sorted before Easter. Your DH does have to back you up. His parents aren't that bothered about your DC welfare if they keep having rants at you in front of them, are they? This will affect the DC much more than you may realise, unfortunately. They don't this kind of behaviour in their lives; they're worth more than that. Perhaps your DH will see it from their point of view if he can't see it from yours.

I wish you luck in dealing with this. I know how hard it can be. I have shed many, many tears over this issue and my father simply is not worth it.

I would agree with you lequeen other than the shouting.
I don't care what idiots think of my life, but I won't have them shouting and screaming at me.
Especially not in front of my DC.

OP, do your PIL shout at your DH? What is his reaction to that?

I think you are approaching them as if they are normal, rational adults and then when they come out with this bullying and dismissive behaviour you try and engage in a reasoned debate. I understand why but it won't work. Disengage. Don't look for their interest or approval for your choices and decisions - you won't get it. Your DH has had plenty of opportunities to tell them to stop, too. The gagging is an excuse this time but it can't continue.

For example if my FiL made the car seat comment, I'd just say 'mmn yeah,' you weren't ever going to take your child out of the seat on the motorway, so why get in a conversation about it being 'crazy' to do so? He will say black is white if you say the opposite. Don't engage with him and if it continues, don't go to their house. You sound lovely, intelligent and reasonable. You deserve far, far better than this.

You haven't realised yet have you? You hold all the cards. You are the gatekeeper to the grandchildren. Don't go at Easter, don't engage with them. They have created the problem they need to learn (like toddlers or fuckwit abusive men) that treating you badly has unpleasant consequences for them being not seeing their GC.

We had this with DH's parents, they treated us unacceptably, in a way neither of us would ever treat anyone and would not let any friend treat us. So we withdrew didn't call or anything. It took a few months before they initiated contact it obviously sunk in that if they weren't civil to us they were not going to see their only 2 adorable little granddaughters. We now have a very superficial polite relationship which we have accepted is the best we can hope for.

Your children are getting older.

Is this what you want them to remember from visits to your PILs??? Your husband vomiting and you being verbally abused by your PILs???? Seriously??

You both need to grow a backbone and put yourselves and your children first.