Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

[cathkidstonrefusnik]

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

I certainly know of several stag do's where the men have used the services of the prostitutes, one was celebrating his engagement, the other a married man who often went there with a group of lads, so I'm guessing it wasn't his first time. I also know that they didn't come back and tell their partners what a great time they had paying to be sucked off.

Wibu to suggest that quite a few men that go to Amsterdam and use prostitutes are businessmen?

I have no doubt that many men go there for sex, but I'd assume many men on stag dos have less than commendable behaviour.

And I despise men who use prostitutes.

The point regargin the OP is that it is still none of the co workers business.

Regarding Sweden-
www.thelocal.se/27580/20100703/
I have read before that traffickers avoid Sweden and flock to Amsterdam and other such places.
This law should be imported to all countries. It makes the johns and pimps the the criminals, not the girls and women. Stop the demand.
Hell yeah.

At least prostitution in Holland is legal, and there is a hookers union, so it is more likely the prostitues are willing participants, rather than sex slaves held hostage by brutal pimps.

I do not think that Amsterdam is worse than Hamburg, London, Tallin or any other city for strippers and dodgy clubs TBH

The point regargin the OP is that it is still none of the co workers business

Exactly, but this is a point that seems to have been lost.

Get a life jobs worth!

Cardgames - in case you missed it.

re swedish sex laws

cardgames - if you read that report it doesn't suggest that the law has been much of a sucess at all

and I was refering to the link you posted yourself cardgames
it appears to suggest it has only pushed women into neighbouring countries or underground where they are even more vulnerable

catgirl if you were to scan all my posts, not once have I said "all men do this or that" or even that all men that set foot within the city walls of Amsterdam (or wherever) will go and shag a prostitute or whatever

all my posts on this thread (and any similar ones) are talking about the ones that do and that women who uphold their right to do that are wrong to do so

I also uphold my opinion that groups of sexist men with poor boundaries who make such a trip to Amsterdam are more likely to use the sex industry than the ones who go to York, or similar

they choose places like Amsterdam, because of the reputation, the free access to seedy sex with no questions asked and the "what happens in Vegas" way that some seedy men choose to conduct their lives

I do not see how that cannot possibly be denied, unless you are living in a permananent state of denial, which is possible I suppose

The only problem with the Swedish law that it's too meek. Let's put the pimps and johns in jail. Now we're talking!
Is there anything worse than a pimp? I don't think so. Shitbags earning money by pimping out girls and women's bodies to other men. Seriously get a real job.

And OP is still Not Being Unreasonable for being uncomfortable with the wholething. Why so much hate against her? You would think she was a trafficker or something, but no, she is just uncomfortable with sexist assholes going to sexist exploitation paradise!

SF...were you addressing me when you said "your priorities are skewed", it wasn't clear ?

AF: the (admittedly oblique) point of that post was to highlight that the more adult parts of Amsterdam doesn't have to be negative (although I recognise that there are abusive parts to it that need to be eliminated). Some parts of Amsterdam can play a positive part in a mature relationship.

From the Local article: "The evaluation shows that the ban on the purchase of sexual services has had the intended effect and is an important instrument in preventing and combating prostitution and human trafficking for sexual purposes," the report said.

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes
All women haters? Really? Hmm I think its way, way more complicated than that...

You will never solve problems by criminalisation alone. Not if that research and the info in SF's link is anything to go by.

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes

Why so much hate against her?

So much hate? I've read the whole thread and I can't see that.

Some parts of Amsterdam can play a positive part in a mature relationship

I agree I love visiting the museums with DP. Too bad the city is ruined with the modern day slavery shit being OK. Seriously - they have shopping windows with real people displayed. American slavemarket flashback!

which post are you talking about, WUL...the one where you tell us that you have animalistic, borderline-illegal sex with your partner ?

please, spare us

AF - No you haven't said that any group of sexist men going to Amsterdam are automatically sex tourists but others have.

I never said men who use prostitues are not wrong to do so.
I do not believe the main reason for stag do visiting Amsterdam is the sex industry, although I believe it is a reason for some men. I think the drugs would be reason number 1.

I think the sort of men who will use the sex industry will use it anywhere and the sort of man who won't use it won't use it.

I am unsure what I am "denying"

then you are right they are going for the cheap beer and that lots of young women just haning around trying to bait these poor men, horrible horrible women doing this then when they do not get what they want they make up horrible lies

yes i did read your link sigmunda, we know that it is still going to go underground we are aware of that and need to tackle that but what also needs to be done is stop normalising the sex industry making out to be all just a bit of fun and everyone has a good time because that is not the case
here is a link that supports the changes

www.swedishwire.com/politics/5261-swedish-sex-purchase-law-very-effective

you can pull up all the links you like (so can i) but what they are trying to fight is the exploitation of women this is one way of maybe tackling it or is it best just to turn a blind eye which has been going on for thousands of years. we only need to look at the problems in Amsterdam to see how even when legal there will still be women trafficked why because it is about the selling of flesh, of humans it is not and can never be a good business run ethically

20 years ago a man going to a lap dance type club would have been seen by most as seedy, a group of men going to Amsterdam and visiting the red light district would have raised eyebrows now it just all part of the fun. we seem to be (maybe it?s a cultural thing) going along the lines of well lets experiment more lets be sexually more adventurous that is a good thing but it does not mean that anyone needs to be exploited in our gain for more sexual freedom

Yes I was addressing you AF. Your primary concern seems to be punishing the men who use prostitutes rather than concerning yourself with the safety of the prostitutes, who will, as evidenced be forced to work underground with no safety regs.

From the link:

'According to her studies, prostitutes feel more vulnerable because they now have to operate secretly.

Other figures suggest that the number of women trafficked to Sweden has more than doubled, according to Kajsa Wahlberg, a detective inspector and Sweden's national rapporteur on trafficking.'

My main concern would be that, given the overwhelming likelihood that prostitution will not be eradicated, safety regulations should be put into place to protect sex workers. Call me a male apologist if you like, but that's bull.

well then, catgirl, I am unsure why you addressed me personally if we are in agreement, at least on the question you asked

Too bad the city is ruined with the modern day slavery shit being OK

It's confined to a designated area. It's perfectly possible to visit without going near it, so it's melodramatic to describe the city as "ruined". I don't remember seeing anyone in a shop window in the museum quarter.

I'm not sure either AF apologies