Does any one actually know kids like this?

[westcoastnortherner]

Yes, Yes I know it's a Daily Mail article, but are there really that many kids like this out there?!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2101292/They-wear-nappies-drink-cola--dont-know-open-book-One-teachers-terrifying-insight-5-year-olds-failed-parents.html#comments

I didn't know that a single filling in your child's teeth made you a bad parent?
Some children are delayed in their development because of SN, some because of the way they have been parenting, and probably in some cases a mixture of the two. Some teachers will demonise parents if their child has issues with toileting no matter what the reason, while other teachers are sensible enough to be able to tell the difference between a child who has a genuine issue despite their parents' best efforts and one who just hasn't been toilet trained. Many children will not have been diagnosed with SN when they start school, so some teachers will just assume it's down to bad parenting. If a child is soiling themselves several times in the course of a school day, then it may well point to a medical issue such as constipation. Likewise with speech and other things like motor skills, some children develop quicker than others. Many young children struggle with things like buttons and zips purely because their fine motor skills are still developing.

I work in a primary school in a deprived area of south London and I've never met a child like the ones described in that article. Plenty of our children experience bad parenting sadly, and are involved with social services, but all of them are toilet trained, can speak (unless they have SN), and have all their teeth.

Fanjo - there are fillings and then there are fillings. i know children who have rotted out teeth that are so rotted it went through to the underneath where you could see red actually through the tooth. It had literally rotted through to the inside and were not fixed until forced by ss.I am talking 2 year old age, and more than one tooth. Many 2/3 year olds have all black rotted teeth.
They drink too many fizzy or high sugar drinks and lots high sugar cheap junky sweets.

I think people who work with these children andfamlies unerstand the extremes and it isnt 'normal' such as the odd filling, a child is behind on certain aspects. You can tell the difference adn I say this as some one myself who lives in one of the top 5% deprived areas of country. I dont think it is just low wge/poverty its literally every aspect of the childs life, aand often the parents who grew up in a similar manner. I dontthink it is because the parents dont care (although sometimes it is) its much more than that. Howeer this government are putting inplace free 10 hours for deprived 2 year olds I dont think it will be enough. I really dont know what would be tbh, and wish I did.

Couldn't agree more Fanjo - People are very quick to get their judgy pants on...a teacher blamed me for babying ds because it took him 10 minutes to get dressed at school after PE...she had assumed I dressed him every morning! Cheeky cow. He dressed himself every morning from the age of 2, in less than 2 minutes but it was too bloody easy to blame me. He gets easily distracted when surrounded by loads of other kids...which is annoying but not something that is a result of poor parenting.

oh come on , never seen an escalator never been off the estate? , I'm not denying that child poverty doesn't exist its only too sad that it does , but bloody hell the things I read on MN about council estates amaze me

To be fair usual I would not have believed it either without seeing it. And I'm not saying it was every child in the class but it was several.

I know what fanjo is saying, and agree that, to an extent, some of these children will have undx'd SN. especially since the dx process is becoming more and more of a 'wait and see' process - delaying the dx (and thus any help the parents or child might need) beyond school starting age.

I know a child (in fact I know several) who seemingly did not recognise a single nursery rhyme; or know how to open a book. who can only drink from a toddler cup/sports bottle. who was in nappies as they started school. and so on.

of the children I know to whom this applies, all now (at the age of 8+) have a dx of some sort. my own (who is among this number) has severe ASD. others have dyspraxia, or AS, or GDD, or a whole host of other things.

I am not saying that deprivation does not happen. Sadly I know it does. Same for neglect. but it is not always the case.

I would think a more interesting question is: why, amongst the many middle class homes that I know, are these issues so prevalent now, when they were not a generation ago? and I am talking about issues now, not neglect or deprivation. children from homes where they are loved and looked after. who have toys, but cannot play with them, despite their parents' best efforts. who have books, but cannot open them, let alone read them. who are sung and read to regularly (to the point of exhaustion on the parents' part) but cannot speak in full sentences, or recognise letters/sounds/numbers/whatever. because there are an awful lot more of these children than there ever used to be.

And even though ds aged 8, is a passionate reader - he has finished reading the whole Harry Potter & Percy Jackson series he still manged to make me a Valentines card which opened the wrong way and that isn't unusual for him.

I think even though the figures are questionable, it doesn't make it any less awful that it is more than a rare occurance.
There is a little boy I know has encountered questionable parenting. various people have been involved helping the family and yet the child has life long issues based on the neglect he has experienced. One of the few words he could say when he was 3 was waitrose.

No - but I don't know many children apart from my own. Who do drink fizzy drinks.

Dentist check up shows their teeth are fine though!

If any of you have ever seen the bookstart height chart it outlines if you play with me.., if you read with me...if you sing with me.... etc I will (and then what they get out of it). Before I worked in these types of settings, despite living in the area thought it was patronising and stating the obvious but too a fair few parents it just doesnt occur to them, which when you find out their backgrounds its sad and not a judgement situation. They just have no template to base their parenting on at all.

This thread makes me a little nervous.

My ds8 has caps on several of his back teeth, he was born without enamel ...but he could read from 4.

will I still be judged?

This strikes a cord with me this article, and also makes me feel like the shittest parent in the world. When my dd1 started nursery (at 3.5) she wasn't properly toilet trained. Not through lack of trying, had been at it since she was 2.5. I wouldn't send her to nursery in nappies, but would send her with at least 2 changes of clothing. She frequently wet and soiled herself so many times that I ended up putting her in pull ups as it was so awful to expect the nursery staff to keep changing her. She also found it difficult to drink from a cup without a lid, and she refused point blank to feed herself with a fork until she was 3, (I would have to feed her). When she started in reception it was a little better, but not by much. She's now 8 and although thankfully she hasn't soiled herself in years, she does have a few accidents every now and then during the day, and she still isn't dry at night. She has to wear drynites. She was diagnosed with ASD 2 weeks ago. If I'd had, had that diagnosis 5 years ago it would have made things so much easier, because since then I've just thought I was a terrible mother who couldn't get her child toilet trained.

In contrast, dd2 was toilet trained day and night when she was 2.5. She has never had an accident in nursery or school.

The article in typical DM style is very sensationalist. I would think a high proportion of the kids turning up in nappies, not able to feed themselves etc have some sort of undiagnosed SN.

What has not knowing nursery rhymes got to do with the price of fish? I never sang my children nursery rhymes, I sang them Nina Simone and motown classics. If you're going to base charges of neglect on such random things, you're as bad as the daily fail!

A very sad thread.

I'm not sure why usualsuspect is so disbelieving. Why would so many people be making up tall tales about their personal experience? I've seen it too, but go ahead, disbelieve us all. I must have imagined the children crawling with untreated headlice, rarely having a change of clothes, never having left their estate (some of their parents hadn't either!), coming to school unfed...

It's not the fillings or the book opening or being non verbal or wearing nappies...

it's untreated rotting and uncleaned teeth
it's not knowing that a book contains a story or rhyme NEVER having seen anyone USE a book
it's not attempting to use a full sentence because until school it has never been modelled to them. [think the difference between always saying "drink?" or "would you like a drink?"] these extra words are confusing if they are new
it's being brought to school in a pull up that has a night's wee in it
it's clothes that are stale and smelly (not yesterday's dinner, but weeks of grime)
it's children that go in the outside area to wee on the grass as a matter of course
it's children whose toenails have curled under and are full of ingrained dirt
it's not knowing that fuck is unacceptable in general conversation

These things do not indicate SN whether dx or not nor do they mean a child is not loved.

They do mean the family need help and support to learn how to be parents.

Maybe its because I live on a council estate ...

and can't imagine anyone never leaving the estate ever ,we have buses and everything you know

usual as i said I live in the top 5% most deprived estates in country. It doesnt make it any less true though and even having lived here I wouldnt of known the full extent till I started working in the local setting. You wouldnt know until you see the ss cases and the amount and the daily things these children (and families) go through. Even having lived here years and seeing the people its surprising what stuff happens within England. I dont think people should get defensive over it else otherwise its brushed under the carpet, and as I said its often support people need not judgement.

Well evidently not all council estates are the same.

Besides which, the article clearly states that the teacher works in an affluent area, and makes no claim that the council estate kids are any different to the others, does it? So I'm not sure why you think that is relevant.

Well said, Nilbymouth.

I unfortunately do know children like this. :(

Very sad thread.

Oh come on , that article and some on this thread is one big judgement

I know some children live in poverty and its a disgrace , but stop with all the bloody council estate bashing