Does any one actually know kids like this?

[westcoastnortherner]

Yes, Yes I know it's a Daily Mail article, but are there really that many kids like this out there?!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2101292/They-wear-nappies-drink-cola--dont-know-open-book-One-teachers-terrifying-insight-5-year-olds-failed-parents.html#comments

I may know one family like this; they stick out like sore thumbs at DC school. I don't believe that 40% can be right, though.
I think some of the items often mentioned in these discussions are irrelevant: shoelaces, using a knife, riding a bike, clear speech (speech delay & disorders are under diagnosed, if anything, and kids from very deprived backgrounds can have beautiful speech just as doted on kids can struggle to say anything clearly).

But other stuff, about lack of meals, proper clothing, enough sleep, poor toileting, very :(.

DDs 1 and 2 met children like that in the Appalachia region of the US on a church aid trip. 'Mountain Dew Mouth' is tooth decay caused by lifelong drinking of Mountain Dew, starting with the baby bottle in many cases.

As for children not knowing nursery rhymes - not so much a problem if language development is otherwise on track imo. Many children have nannies who don't know English nursery rhymes. If they've never been read to in English and English is their first language then I think that's more of an issue. Singing in another language or learning rhymes in another language is fine. I knew children who spoke more Spanish than English in the US as their nannies had all been Spanish speakers. Their English needed a lot of fine tuning when they got to school and their reading was a bit behind their classmates - on a par with bi-lingual children, which they were, with Spanish dominating.

I know many children who have had a string of nannies and not much contact with parents; very insecure children, sad for them.

MarvintheMartian - I know of a 2 yo child of very well off parents, both older, who can barely speak, possibly because his parents and apparently his daily CM never talk to him. My sister knows the mum and watched their interaction (complete lack of I should say) and was very surprised. When she was trying to get to the bottom of it with her, she asked the mum if she ever read to the DS. The reply gobsmacked her - 'I didn't know they could read'. The parents are in fairyland. Child spends all day in CMs and the CM has now been encouraged to talk a lot with him in an effort to undo the damage...

Nappies - again SNs can result in various problems in potty training. Not in itself an indication of poor parenting.

That makes more sense Molly. I'm pleased to hear there is so much monitoring before it gets to a statutory level.

marvin - I do appreciate what you are saying about SN, but all or most of my points together, coupled with meeting the family and sometimes visiting the home (which I only do by parent request so not "big brother" style visits ) can usually give an accurate picture of the child's early years and why the child has specific issues.

Most children will learn about books, acceptable conventions in languge and how to use a toilet etc very quickly (eg days or weeks) in a stable, nurturing classroom. It's when this doesn't happen that SN starts to be considered.

That teacher in the article actually apologised to a parent for telling their child to not spit at other children. She sounds totally pathetic and quite whiny in that article. I'm sure that some of the things are true, but some of it sounds totally blown out of all proportion.

I doubt for a minute that a child (with no SN) is incapable of opening a book or holding a paintbrush. She also says that she clears up 'accidents' every day. If she's teaching a class of 30 four year olds, then one of them is bound to have a little accident on any given day.

It did piss me off that the teacher would have expected this on a sink estate, you know, where poor people live, but not in wealthy places.

I also don't think the teeth thing is a fair indicator. There are children who don't drink fizzy drinks, whose parents do brush their teeth twice a day, who have poor enamel. Horrible to think the teacher is assuming they live on cola!

I think that the figure quoted would be correct in some areas if it wasn't for the children being put on"plans" and nursery etc, places being given, it is often the nursery that "trains" the children.

You can see the difference in some children within a few weeks of being given a full time place at school, at four years old, that is how you know that it isn't SN, the school manages to achieve what the parents should have done.

I don't work in the area that i live because i would be home visiting 1/5th of my neighbours at any time (if not more). I know of the families that are have SS involvement because i see former colleagues calling at the houses.

I commented on the sociopath thread, there are a lot of undiagnosed personality disorders and other MH conditions in parents that don't show up until their child is of "training" age and then it becomes apparent that there is something quite odd going on.

There is also laziness, as well.

Why are so many people so keen not to believe these children exist? I haven't met any but have no reason to doubt those who have. Why the defensiveness? What motive do people have to lie about levels of neglect and poverty (people on here, not the DM)?

Actually, I do know one little boy who is from a very nice family, who are quite well off. He started school still in nappies, still in a cot and high chair, and still drinking from baby bottles because his mum thinks you should be child led and wait until they tell you they are ready to move on to the next stage. Whenever anyone tries to intervene she gets very upset that her boy will be traumatised and resists advice.

And the judginess over knife and folk usage - lots of kids struggle with fine motor skills and lots of kids don't come from meat and two veg families where cutting up food with a knife is required - anyone use a knife to eat a curry? but of course narrow minded teachers wouldn't consider that if you weren't Asian.

I know one poor boy who had toileting issues and we all knew about it because she utterly humiliated that child - all the other kids talked about how she spoke to him about smelling of poo. Same teacher I spoke to about my dc having Head Lice and to make her aware that he was being treated but it was going around, she screwed up her face in a way that suggested she was going to be sick, I was horrified by her response - some people are not cut out to be Reception teachers.

Working it out 1/5th is 20%,without the involvement at toddler stag, i would say that there could be on average 40% if it wasn't for intervention,in some areas.

This is usually picked up as a feeding problem by HV etc's (i have known three year olds who are fed on baby jars). The lack of toilet training etc is just a continuation.

good point re: cutlery, Bettybathroom. my younger child has some fine motor issues, bt nothing major. however, given the extreme difficulties of my older child, most meals eaten at home are eg curry, or Bolognese sauce with rice etc. all eaten with a fork or spoon (according to dexterity). so I imagine there are a few raised eyebrows at lunchtime over the fact she cannot use a knife effectively. but then she doesn't need to for the majority of her meals, and is learning when she is confronted with it (I refuse to cook separate meals for the children). she is also only 4. it will come in time, as her fine motor skills improve.

Having been involved in a junior oral health campaign, the teeth thing is a fair indicator. Different children do have different strengths of enamel, and I'm not suggesting for a moment no child which is properly looked after will have a filling, but if children are fed a healthy balanced diet, and their teeth are card for, there is a much lower probability of them having a filling.

And the cases where children have to have entire rows of baby teeth removed because they are rotten, or even worse are left with them, both of which I have seen, are heartbreaking and must be agony. They cannot possibly happen where the child's oral health is cared for except in a very few rare case where the child has a serious problem with their tooth enamel.

I don't see many children like that ones mentioned, but I do see some, and I see a lot who dont hit some of the milestones including up into their teens as part of my work. These are often the children who become the adults who literally cannot get or sustain employment, end up with addiction issues, etc.

This article is highlighting neglectful parenting or parents not helping the child to meet milestones, not about SN.

These parents exsist and it isn't about them wanting or needing support, some just want to parent however they see fit.

W are not talking children who struggle with a knife ffs we are talking children who have never been shown how to use cutlery, eating with a spoon or fingers. I'm actually glad some of you don't know how bad it can be out there.

all I am doing is pointing out that sometimes the points made in the article can be as a result of undx'd SN.

I know full well how bad it can be, in terms of neglect and abuse.

but, at reception level it can be very hard to tell whether an issue - eating with hands vs cutlery; clothes unchanged and unwashed for days and weeks; poor oral care; never (apparently) seen a book; not toilet trained/weeing in the bushes or the open/palying with and smearing poo etc.

you cannot tell whether this is neglectful parenting or SN, from seeing the child at school. even extremes of diet, at times.

given the DM penchant for exaggerating, and given the problems are on the rise (despite ever more interventions by charities, hv, schools and so on), it is not outside the realms of possibility that a proportion of the children under discussion have some form of SN.

oh, and my point re: a knife was in answer to another post, not a generalisation that that is the depth of the problem, fgs.

Usually the parents are known to several services though. Where it's not due to neglect, the parents engage with the school, come to meeting, accept - no usually actively seek help. It's possible to have a bit of a clue much earlier. Recent research is saying tht actually by age three a child's life choices and life chances are pretty fixed. That's why there is so much emphasis on early intervention. Now.

And as I said, I see it continue into teenagers though.

The article is what we are discussing it states:

The school makes it clear that we expect children to be able to use a lavatory, button their coats and eat with a knife and fork by the time they begin full-time education, but far too many of them just can?t. They?ve never been taught how.

We are discussing the article, are we not? Sure there is extreme neglect, I don't doubt that but this article is not drawing the dictinction between extreme neglect and normal development - they have mixed it all up to extend and sensationalise the article.

Ys yes Maryz it's a pattern and it's cyclical. And the families are very very hard to engage with. Lovely often, but chaotic, mobile phones, always losing, never answer doors, don't turn up to appointments etc.

it is the blithe assumption on the part of the teacher in the article that 'there is no medical or SN' that gets me.

you know, Maryz (am a namechanger, not a stalker!) how hard it can be to get issues recognised, at times. and how our children can come across as feral little buggers (said with utmost affection, of course ) which have never been taught right from wrong, are never cared for, etc. yet it is fine for a teacher to make such a sweeping generalisation as 'there is no SN', without necessarily knowing that the parents may have been battling for years to be taken seriously, and will probably battle for a good few more.

I know that deprivation, neglect and abuse happen. I know it is god awful. but the sneery tone of the DM article (shock, horror! would never have expected that!) with it's lovely assertions about affluent areas, and middle class families just ring too many bells for me.

The article doesn't single out council estates, so I don't know why that's even being brought up. It's clearly just a parenting issue, irrespective of the socia-economic situation on the parents - I, for example, know two revoltingly rich, high-flying parents who are gone by 6am in the morning and rarely home before 9pm, and their are a litany of issues with the kids (quite why they bothered having them, I don't know quite frankly, as they never see them and are always working, even at home on the weekends).

The bottom line is that people can't come on here and say "it's rubbish, what nonsense" in the face of countless (extremely sad) examples that are being listed here. Instead of denying it's an issue, we should be looking at what can be done to encourage parents to take responsiblity for their children and to stop expecting everyone else but them to do the hard work.

We are in the middle of term 2 and still having to cut up stuff for year 2 kids who have school meals LET alone reception age - if they can't do it at home - how do parents imagine they will eat "roast chicken with roast potatoes, green vegetables and gravy". Why sign up for a dinner they cannot eat themselves - or teach them how to cut...

If it takes one midday supervisor 1 minute to cut up a child's lunch for them and each mds has 20 kids (out of 80) who can't cut up their own food, we are spending the whole of the inside allocated time cutting up food, not watching the little darlings putting most of it in the slops bin on the floor

I know one child who started school still in nappies. The Mother swears he has SN and/or medical issues. All the testing so far has shown nothing. Her DD, at almost 3 is also still in nappies. Yet 6 months ago, the DD was potty training, then she had a couple of accidents, so the Mum put her back in nappies now she has lost all interest in using the potty!