Does any one actually know kids like this?

[westcoastnortherner]

Yes, Yes I know it's a Daily Mail article, but are there really that many kids like this out there?!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2101292/They-wear-nappies-drink-cola--dont-know-open-book-One-teachers-terrifying-insight-5-year-olds-failed-parents.html#comments

Birdsgottafly - I used to work in a school in London for children with Moderate Learning Difficulties, age 5-16. Sadly a vast proportion of the students were "2nd generation" pupils - their parents had been at the school too. Many of these families had, for example, problems with economic and social deprivation, poor housing, parents who couldn't cope and houses overrun with dogs and cats.

One boy would have been badly bullied because he was never clean, but fortunately the school had been built with a fully-functioning bathroom and the home-school worker made sure he used the bath and put on the clean clothes we supplied.

Even the smallest thing like a school being able to do that can make such a difference to a child's life.

Mandy- for those parents it is about getting the right support in place. Some of teaching he children how to self care is to make up for what the parents may not be capable of and no judgement should be put on those parents what so ever.

But there are parents who are fully functioning but don't see their children as being worthy of time or care. You get parents who don't see themselves as being responsible for bringing their children up, but resents anyone who tries to.

These reports promote discussion, which is good and hopefully they will spur people to join campaigns against cuts that affect children.

The plight of young carers is massively overlooked and support is needed for them, the list is endless.

I beleive though that "we", as a society should be recognising what is going on in some childrens lives and be seeking to improve it.

I'm not entirely sure I believe it, although it's not entirely surprising. From what I do see, I think there's a lot of factors which could contribute. A lot of it is down to baby'ing'. Parents (some, of course not all) don't see their child growing up. They like to do things for them still - some purposely hold back on encouraging independence because they feel sad their 'baby' is growing up. Because of this thought that 'he/she can't possibly understand that, they're only 2/3' means that teaching these all important life skills are often left right until the last minute - which of course doesn't allow enough time for the child to grasp these things properly. Sometimes, lazy parenting means it's easier for some parents to do things for the child rather than teach their child how to do it themselves. I hear of parents thinking "my child starts school in 3 months, they can't do anything for themselves yet" so try to cram it all in. Of course, it's more or less impossible. These things need to be taught from the word go.

Other than these types of parents, you also get some who are too busy working. They probably hardly see their child all week - and then weekends are taken up with shopping etc - very little time actually spent with the child. Of course, in these cases the child should be in Nursery or something, but I don't think their teaching is as effective as a parents. That's not a slur on working parents btw - and certainly not saying all working parents are the same.

And then, clearly you get some children who are neglected and there are also other things going on at home - of which I'd hope these teachers who are complaining are also making reports to SS and not just the DM. There is also SN in some cases.

There is neglect and then there are varying degrees of ability.

My 10yo DS is doing GCSE maths work but has poor fine motor skills when it comes to writing, my 8 yo son has only just started to take an interest in reading on his own and he isn't great with a knife and fork, are they neglected, absolutely not.

Oh and DS1 has had two bad baby teeth removed, DS2 has lovely pearly white teeth and has never had a problem, same diet as his brother, always brushes twice a day and provided with mouth wash, but he has his dads genes and his teeth decay very easily.

"My dd's school had a big notice outside the reception class asking for spare pairs of knickers and pants for the reception children that have accidents.
When she was in reception nobody ever wet themselves or only very occasionally had an accident. I was just wondering then why suddenly the reception kids now have accidents at school."

i agree, it used to be rare for kids to have accidents at schools. As I said earlier my 3rd child had some delays including speech and toileting - actually could go himself but needed reminded frequently or would wet himself. At 3.5 he went to a playgroup type nursery for 1 afternoon a week. They were reluctant to take him because of the toileting issues as generally they expected children to be fully toilet trained at this age. And this was an ordinary council run place.

So why should it take much longer nowdays for children to learn these skills? After all children with undiagnosed sn now at these ages would also have been undiagnosed then. So I don't accept that is the reason.

Its very rare in my childs school. Possibly because no pre-school will take a child in nappies, at 3.
Whats going on in your schools?

I would have desperately hoped that most teachers - clearly accepting horrible judgy cows like the one hunty mentions :( - would at least have a vague idea whether a parent was trying to help their own child or not?

If a child was struggling with something - whether or not that was down to SN, or any suspected problem - a caring parent would presumably be willing to discuss this with the teacher, or possibly would've even approached the school from the beginning to say "DC can't do XXX" and ask for/accept help from the school. This would surely clue the teacher in to the fact this wasn't a "can't be arsed" type parent, but a loving one whose child was struggling [whether or not due to SN] despite the parents' efforts? So while they may not instantly think "undiagnosed SN" they would at least realise that the parent is doing their best.

They must also get parents who get defensive or accuse the teacher of interfering... The parents who refuse any intervention. Those are the ones who get judged, I would've thought. Every time I think of this issue I get to brick wall which says that often the parents of those most desperate for help are the parents who don't access it.

Clearly though there are teachers who prefer to instantly jump to the bad conclusion. :(

Excepting, not accepting, sorry.

Unfortunately there are some teachers that just don't want to know if a child has toileting issues, fuzz, even though it is made clear to them that there is a genuine medical issue, they couldn't possibly remind a child to go to the toilet because " they have 26 children" and even though a HV has written to the school asking for their support because "this is a nursery school and we don't have children in nappies" and they think it is acceptable to leave a child sitting in a dirty pull up for half an hour and then hold up a written board recording how many times the child has had an accident, in front of the child, and remind you that it is their policy that if a child has too many accidents they will be excluded from nursery. And the look on their face when You point out that this policy, is actually illegal, is priceless.

On the other hand there are some teachers and TAs, who are wonderfully supportive and instead of blaming and judging the parents and child are understanding and realise that the parents are doing the best and actually do what they can to help and to deal with it as sensitively and discreetly as possible.

Halcyon and

I know of children (with clear medical issues, well documented to the school, toileting care plans written into statements etc) who have been left soiled (child not wearing nappies/pull ups as trained if reminded/prompted/taken at regular intervals) - literally soaked through with wee and poo - for a good part of the day.

teachers and TAs who deny all knowledge that there has been an accident (despite olfactory evidence to the contrary) - children who end up with welts and weals from acidic poo drying onto their skin, and being left there all day.

this happens too - clear neglect on the part of anyone at the school, and complete failure of duty of care.

all because 'the child should be toilet trained' or 'we can't always be on hand to deal with every little thing'.

I think part of the rise in children starting school not toilet trained is down to the rise in SN - dyspraxia, sensory issues, ASDs are on massively on the rise, and this is showing up more with a higher proportion of children (whether dx'd at that point or not) not 'ready' to start school.

dyspraxia, sensory issues, ASDs are on massively on the rise

I don't believe they are. I think the medicalisation of behaviours is though.

I would have to agree to disagree on that front.

yes, part of the rise in number is due to widening dx criteria (and better dx of borderline needs), but not all. not by a long way.

why would it rise then?

I am genuinley interested but come from a stance of firmly believing these days far too many normal behaviours are medicalised and labelled

(excuse spelling - breast feeding)

I don't get that "easer" thing at all. Is it because I used cloth nappies? But even if I used disps, the week-long+ storage of the nasty things would still get to me (badly). Toilets are so much tidier (& cheaper) as waste receptacles.

catgirl, I understand where you are coming from. But I have seen far more 4 and 5 year old unable to toilet train than my mother ever did in her time as a mum of young children, iyswim.

and really unable to train - usually ending up years after the fact with a dx of some sort - with involved parents, trying for years to get their children help and/or sorted toileting wise.

as to why there is a rise? the answer is not clear cut. there is alot of research ongoing to try to find this out. in the case of ASDs, it all depends on 'which' autism you are talking about (it is well recognised that autism is not one thing, and there are many routes that end up there, from genetics, to environmental factors, to a combination of both, to environmental triggers which spark off an underlying condition, etc)

ragged - I don't get the 'easier' thing either. I used cloth nappies too, and still do for my 8 year old at night. I bloody wish I didn't have to, I can tell you! but I suppose for some it is 'easier' to carry on using nappies rather than train, but expensive, and in fact more work (wrt changing nappy etc) and for longer than going throught he pain that is toilet training...

I'm interested as my MIL and SIL are fighting to get my DN a dx of Aspergers and get him statemented

I think there is nothing wrong with him (although years of being told by them there is has certainly left its mark)

It isnt a subject I claim to know much about but I do think people will go oh he must have Aspergers / ADHD or whatever far too quickly and I would imagine a significant proportion of diagnosed children have nothing wrong with them. I am not saying all by any means and of course some children do have SN, but I just dont believe every child that is diagnosed does and am horrified by what is happening to my DN :(

I know its a controversial viewpoint on here, but I agree with you catgirl.

Thanks helpyourself, luckily dd is getting the support she needs now.

Marvin, that's terrible.

Until recently schools were not required to accept children who weren't toilet trained so children who were late developers, had SN or just hadn't been trained often missed out on nursery or playgroup because of it. Even now a lot of nursery schools are still telling parents that children MUST be fully toilet trained before they start and many parents don't realise that schools aren't allowed to
Refuse children because of toileting problems.
And once they reached compulsory school age then I suppose that if they hadn't been toilet trained, for whatever reason, they would have had to go to a special school, because mainstream schools could refuse them.

There have always been children with toileting problems, it's just that people were embarrassed to talk about it.

Thanks lesley :)

I dont want to offend anyone or be controversial but from the experiene with my DN which is the only experience I have I admit, I cant help but think this

How often do you see your dn,catgirl? Many children with AS may seem to have "nothing wrong with them" in some situations, but it may be a different story when they are at home or school. And they don't just hand out diagnoses like sweeties, either. Many children go through assessments but don't meet the criteria for a diagnosis.

Do you know why his family think your dn may have Aspergers? Does he not cope in school?

halcyon - that might be true for nurseries. But in the past I only remember from neighbours/friends dcs with obvious sn going to special schools e.g. using wheelchairs, downs syndrome, obvious learning disabilities. Lots and lots of children who are nowdays diagnosed with sn such as aspergers were then just seen as a bit odd. And they went to mainstream schools. So I personally can't see this as a reason for a rise in kids going to school wearning nappies.

Yes, they may just have been seen as a bit odd, but some children with autism/ Aspergers do have toileting problems and still need to wear nappies/pull ups when they are school aged, and I would imagine that they might have gone to special schools as mainstream schools could have refused them. There were more special schools around years ago, there are now many pupils in mainstream who would have previously gone to special schools.

I didn't really know any friends or neighbours who went to special schools but my understanding is that far more children were sent to them than now, as many special schools have closed down.