Does any one actually know kids like this?

[westcoastnortherner]

Yes, Yes I know it's a Daily Mail article, but are there really that many kids like this out there?!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2101292/They-wear-nappies-drink-cola--dont-know-open-book-One-teachers-terrifying-insight-5-year-olds-failed-parents.html#comments

The family I am talking about had hardly any SS involvement until they appeared in a documentary a few years ago. There was public uproar (I remember watching the Docu and reading a thread on here - was horrified when we moved to this town and realised 'who' the young lad in DDs class was). Thanks to the uproar they now have some 'adult carers' (I don't know what they are called, adults that come in and help the parents and kids) but they need more - in fact I would go so far as to say the children would have been better off removed but then mum would have just had more.

There is one child in DDs class that does have SN. I don't know how severe, his dad is quite open but I suppose I don't really understand, not being in that situation. This child seems more able than the one without SNs. His dad works hard with him, he is always involved, always helping at the school, makes a point of going to all the birthday parties/functions etc with his boy so that he is not left out. His son will never be NT, but will never be as bad as the other one. I applaud 2nd dad, he is fabulous. First mum/dad should be ashamed

I think there is probably a nugget of truth in this but that the SM, in typical DM style, have exaggerated grossly and thrown in some self-righteous outrage for good measure.

My DC's primary/infant school is in an area with a diverse catchment mix (rough local council estate set in a wealthy area) and has an 'outstanding' OFSTED rating so is very desirable. My DC are in are in a class of 30, and from what they've said there are 2 children in their class still in nappies (no SN that I'm aware of though that doesn't mean that they don't have any since 4-year-olds probably wouldn't even notice anything other than the most extreme SN). That's 6%, not most, not even many.

Of course, I'm not a professional so I don't know how representative that is of other classes/years, but I suspect it's fairly average. I know lots of parents who let their DC spend far more time on games consoles etc than I would mine (and it has nothing to do with 'class', in fact AFAICS the middle class parents seem to be the worst for it since they are the ones out long hours working and are understandably desperate for some peace and quiet when they get in), but all of them also read books to their DC, play games with them, let them do colouring etc, and have family outings.

Given the child abuse stats in the UK (in which I am including neglect, as well as deliberate abuse), it stands to reason that most of us will have a child in our DC's school who fits the description in the DM. Add in the fact that the cost of living means that most families now have a situation where both parents work, often with a long commute, so there is less time to fit in daily reading of an hour in among all the other parental requirements such as homework, after-school clubs and simple things like having dinner and a bath which all take up time, and I think that a slight reduction in parental involvement is inevitable, though that's not the same thing as genuine neglect. I think it's a far cry to suggest that some means most, which is what the DM is implying.

DD started at school with lots of children with problems like the 'article' (which is shite by the way- I bet she's conflating lots of cases over many years and she comes to some strange conclusion- why would she stop painting?)

Within a half term they were sitting up to eat with a knife and fork, drinking water, not pop and school ready. The teacher of that class was notorious and generally disliked by the parents, for the very reason she did the parenting the children had missed out on.

The coments are ridiculous, but typically DM- the ones with 2 working parents wouldn't be the ones with these problems, they'd have been in childcare.

I know children of about this age who have some of these problems, but I can't think of a single child who has the all.
There's a little girl who has black stumps forr teeth because of the juice in a bottle; her brother who is now the same age as she was when I first met her doesn't because their parents now know what caused her sad teeth.

i know children who are still in pull-ups because the mother has been hived off into some low-paying job and has to send her children into day-care who often have no interest in potty-training. The child is too confused by potty-training at the weekends, and nappy during the week to get the hang of it. I also know parents who just can't be bothered to potty train their own children.

I know children who have no toys, but the parents of these families almost always have the money for mobile phones. The HVs I work with do home visits and tell us very sad tales.

I know chldren who don't know how to use a book, whose parents sit blithly by why their darling scribbles all over the thing and then who themselves, jam it back into the shelves any-old-how. I also know children from many families whose parents come from non-literate verbal cultures (both white and non-white) who DON"T WANT their children to learn to read. Firstly because the Father of the family will be shown up and disgraced when the chld brings books home to share, and secondly because they really don't want the child to become immersed in our decadant culture.

I know eight-year-olds who are barely reading toddler board-books.

I know children who can't tell me their name, or their address, or whether the child standing next to them is their sibling or their cousin, and I know children who are ignored by their parents who never talk to them or sing or tell them stories because they are too engaged with their damn mobiles. The older of these children are soon plugged into DSs so they don't make a fuss.

I can see why the government is keener than ever to get children from all families into "approved" nursery/daycare from an early age to address some of these issues; and this is of course, is what the two-year pilot scheme has been about.(and likely to be extended).. and it's obviously why all 3-year-olds now have 15hours of nursery funding, so that they can learn what is expected of them in reception class. (Although I feel that this will just lead to iother problems).

It's why the government spends money on Sure-start and Book-start, It's why their are children's centre play schemes, and temorary accomodation play schemes. it's why libraries do schemes like Baby Rhyme Time and Toddler Time. it's why new initiatives like TalkActivity are so important. It's why their are outreach baby clinics in children's centres to pick up families and support them when they wouldn't dream of going anywhere near a clinic to ask for help.

These children are surely out there, professionals know whether the chld is likely SN, the result of questionable parenting or just going-through a phase. The DM is less likely to differentiate because it wouldn't make such a sensational story.

I could have written that article (except I wouldn't). As a Foundation Stage teacher, I've seen all of this many times. It's very sad. I teach in an incredibly deprived area - none of my friends who teach in more affluent areas of the city teach children with these problems. That's not to say I object to teaching any child in my class, I love them all and don't intend to work elsewhere fir any reason. It's just sad.

*for any reason

Go to any A&E or area where you mix with all sectors of the community. You see people barking at their dcs, not interacting nicely at all.

I asked because DD (3.6) will be starting school in September at 4yrs and a few days.

She is toilet trained, although like many children of that age, has problems with bum wiping.
DD can hold hands while we walk, she can speak so others can understand her, although there is room for improvement (she says storeberry instead of strawberry etc).
DD can zip her coat up which she finds a challenge so long as I have put the zip pieces together to start her off. She can use a spoon and a fork, but would struggle with a knife.

Come to think of it, she struggles with socks/trousers/skirts and can't put jumpers/t shirts on at all on her own.

She can drink out of a lidless cup but is prone to spilling it.

DD doesn't recognise her own name and doesn't hold a pencil or a paintbrush properly, although she does know how to open a book.

She knows a few colours (pink, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, black, purple) and can count up to 13 confidently. She can sit still and listen for short periods of time, obviously the more she finds something interesting, the longer she will sit still for.

She does not cope very well with routine though, and this is something the nursery are aware of and are working with the school on. This is not for want of trying...she just doesn't seem to have any desire to 'fit in' and mirror other children, and so I worry the teacher may find her 'difficult'.

I have read this thread and am getting more and more concerned about how the school will cope with her.

littlemiss - you have MONTHS to go before school, they learn so much from you in those last few months, so just think of lots of fun games to do with putting on and off clothes - make sure the ones you buy are easy, and try eating something they think of as a reward (we did chocolate brownies!) together with a knife and fork - they soon pick up how....

A lot of the time we want to do it for them, just so it gets done quickly - but if you can, just slow down - does it matter if the top is on back to front, or the socks inside out - let them try more and more...

I don't refuse to beleive they exist. I do refuse to believe that a teacher in an affluent area in the south of england has scores of children so profoundly neglected as they make out.

Tooth decay is very bad in my area. Sadly my son has fillings inspite of our best efforts. Shoot me as I am clearly a crap parent.

Many children have developmental delay because of glue ear rather than bad parenting. I think that the decline of the health visiting service means that developmental delays aren't caught early enough.

My son's school has a couple of kids like the ones in the article. Certainly they are a minority. I don't know how you tackle child protection families.

littlemiss, your dd sounds perfectly fine to me. Children do not all learn the same things at exactly the same time. She is only 3.6 - that is still very young to have mastered everything and be able to get dressed and do most things entirely by herself.

Another thing to remember is that when children start reception, you will have children who are only just 4 years old, in the same class as children who may be nearly 5. At that age, those 10 or 11 months make a huge difference in the development of the child. Not fair for the teacher to expect them to all be at the same stage.

Unfortunately yes

I am unequivically NOT denying that there are dc like the article mentions - I know that neglect like that exists - I was neglected like that.

BUT, at just 4/5yo, there WILL be a LOT of undiagnosed SN's - because often the ball doesn't get rolling on diagnosis until well after school-age.

And YY to reallytired - glue ear CAN cause a lot of development delay. The changes in the Health Visiting service over the last 13 years since my DD was born have astounded me. I have 4 dc, age 13yo, 9yo, 8yo and 1yo - and the difference in the HV service is staggering. I cannot get an appointment with a HV to discuss DS3's development for love nor money. The ONLY option available to me is to talk about things in an open room during clinic - which I refuse to do, as there is NO confidentiality at all there! I can't get an appointment in an office, or an appointment at home. I didn't have this issue at ALL with DD, and it was nowhere near this bad with my two older DS's. NHS services for dc that HAVE got diagnosed SN before they start school are woefully inadequate.

Also - R.E Dental treatment - when I moved from my previous, deprived area of my town to a more affluent area (Got lucky with social housing), I and my DC were 'bumped' off the list of our previous NHS dentist due to not living in the surestart area any more. In my new area,there wasn't a SINGLE NHS dentist taking on patients. Even the PCT access to dental care thingy couldn't get me an NHS dentist within 70 miles IN A DIFFERENT COUNTY that I couldn't access. It took 6 years of fighting, and a brand new NHS dentist opening, and having to queue ALL NIGHT in the rain, to get my dc a dentist that I could GET them to. My DS1 has hypoplastic teeth. He ended up having to have one removed, and 2 fillings, as he had not been getting the 'fake' enamel painted on his teeth that he had needed! NOT through neglect, or a bad diet - but through a sheer LACK of dentists!

I guess what I am saying is that there WILL be some dc mentioned in this article who have as-yet undiagnosed SN's. SOME, not ALL.

Take out the fizzy drinks and you have my DS :(

littlemiss: DS was 4yo a few days ago & still struggles with all that stuff, too. I am not in the least bit worried (my 4th child). If he had to start school tomorrow I would work on him getting dressed more independently as the main priority. I've seen kids still needing help with PE dressing in y2 (and they were not socially deprived types, either).
Just keep working at the physical independence stuff.

The thing is, all teachers know that some children have diagnosable SNs (whether they are as yet diagnosed or not) and all teachers know that some children are neglected in some way and therefore have the same SNs.

The issues of reason and blame don't really come into it from the perspective of how you deal with it in school. A child with a toileting issue or a speech delay or one who can't use a knife and fork or recognise their own name is just a child with a special need that needs all the support we can give them to learn and change. Whether that need is due to ASD or a less than ideal home life is, in many respects, irrelevant.

A child whose problems are due to nurture rather than nature probably has more chance of 'fixing' their problems but that shouldn't aafect the effort we put into helping them anyway.

So I really think the SN thing is a red herring. ALL these children have SN, just for different reasons. I can see why parents of children with diagnosable conditions are keen to make the distinction but, from a day to day classroom persepctive, there is no such distinction to make. There is no need to blame or judge any parent for any reason as the specifici combination of any given child's SNs could have arisen from any number of factors in their nature and/or nurture. A child needing help is a child needing help.

What's bothering me about this article is surely the teacher is a mandated reporter? Surely instead of gossiping in the DM she should be reporting suspected cases of abuse and neglect, or suggesting children go on the SN register!

Whether the stats in the article are correct or not is irrelevant, the real issue is what are we doing to help children who have troubles?

This has just been on This Morning. Im very annoyed because apparently its all the fault of working mothers and single parents according to eamonn.

No, Eamonn, its just people who dont know how to, arent capable of , or cant be arsed parenting.

urgh am loath to comment as I note that mothers are blamed for the perceived poor parenting, fathers omitted entirely from "culpability". Unfortunately, I can identify with some aspects mentioned; the tooth decay requiring extensive, expensive and painful treatment and children aged 5/6 years who are (native) English speakers but due to poor interaction with parents/carers are being taught English along with those children who are not native speakers.

I think the loss of accessible dental care in this country over the past 20 years is an absolute fucking disgrace. There will be parents of the type on this list who have never been to a dentist, let alone taken their kids to one, because there aren't any, end of.
When I got my maternity nhs exemption I enquired to find there was one dentist in the whole county taking new nhs patients, but only children, not one taking adults. If you were car-less getting to that dentist would be pretty much impossible. Why are we surprised that the nations teeth are rotting?

tbh I am a bit shocked that 5 year olds without SN and without severe neglect couldn't do these things. Okay all kids will have accidents and speech delay can have a heriditary factor.

But when my dcs were young I remember all the kids having lace up shoes - they may not have tied the laces well, but they could tie them. Velcro shoes were largely worn by kids with sn.

I can remember taking one of my DSs to playgroup at 3. He had speech delay but could still unbutton and take off his coat with direction and hang it up. I don't remember any kids without sn at 3 and 4 who couldn't drink out of a cup or beaker - yes with frequent spills, but they didn't need bottles.

I work with challenging families, so I do come across kids like this who have been severely neglected. But tbh I do think ordinary kids with reasonably caring parents should largely be able to do this stuff.