to think most people would like us to live in a communist country?

[wannaBe]

"landlords shouldn't be allowed to rent for more than x amount of money."

"People shouldn't be allowed to sell their houses for more than a certain amount of money."

"People shouldn't be allowed to earn more than a certain amount of money (I'm talking salary here not benefits)."

This isn't a thread about who is better off and who can afford to do what - that's been done to death elsewhere.

But do people really think we would be in a better place if we didn't live in a free economy and where we were dictated to by the state how much we could and couldn't earn/whether we could or couldn't sell our house etc? really?

I've travelled quite extensively in Cuba. It's a fascinating place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there in a million years. I'd last five minutes.
You can't even get ham there never mind 'nice ham'

What you are talking about is Socialism.

And yes, I think most (unselfish, compassionate) people would prefer to live in a truely democratic socialist country, because most people believe in equality of opportunity and meritocracy.

Cuba as an example of somewhere to live! Honestly - I do wonder.

I went to east berlin years ago before the wall came down.
Shops with nothing in them and one tray of grey sandwiches in the hotel we went to for lunch.

Well, sort of, its a symbiotic process, but "human nature" is neither fixed nor constant across societies, so you can't use it as an excuse for why a particualr type of society can't work.

What the heck does that actually mean TheParanoidAndroid?

Sure if all people were working for the greater good of the beehive, the world would be different. But most people are not that unselfish - being selfish is very natural to improve your chances of survival.

People in Cuba have bugger all. We did tourist horse drawn carriage ride round old Havana once. We talk on MN of children in poverty - we don't know we are born in the UK. Whole families living in one room, the only ones who do well are those that get access to tourists and dollars and handed over western luxuries like shampoo. It is a fabulous city and the people are lovely. But you can keep your communism thanks.

We could always give Feudalism another go.

Seriously. Medieval society was quite well ordered and structured. In the countryside, The Lord of the Manor was put in charge by The King and could demand his serfs do a certain number of days work and fight in his army but in return they got protection, a court of law to settle disputes and a lot of days in the year when they were free to work for themselves on land they were allocated or rented from the Lord.

I read recently that a Medieval serf worked less days for the lord of the Mana
or than modern day workers effectively work for Govt to pay their taxes. The so called 'Tax Freedom Day' came earlier in the year for a Medieval serfthan a modern day worker.

I don't think anyone has seriously considered a move to Cuba on this thread, am I wrong?

It is a fascinating country, and beautiful. Impossible to define, really. Its civil rights record is appalling. Yet, before its economy got totally destroyed by the collapse of the USSR, Cuba had one of the most alphabetised population of Central America.
I vividly remember of a documentary on Cuba on Italian tv. They were highly praising the education system, and the fact that children were entitled to free milk until the age of 5... but a woman interviewed argued that all she wanted was... being free to buy perfume. You might feel depressed by this urge, or just deeply moved.

I lived in Poland in the 1980s. Meat and petrol were rationed (and most people stored their spare petrol in their flat!), ditto chocolate. Meat was in very short supply - old joke, before communism, the sign on the door said "butcher" and there was meat inside. Then the sign said "meat" and there was just a butcher inside. Oh yes, you had to queue for toilet rolls (and could read bits of them too). Shopping was very limited - eg only one colour of wool at any one time, clothes were about 15 years out of date and poor quality. And drab. The only vegetables available in the winter were potatoes, onions, cabbage (of course) and carrots. And for fruit you had woolly apples and green oranges from Cuba. The cheese was yellow or white. Nice ham was available from Pewex or Baltona, the hard currency shops.

The central heating was controlled by the town. It came on on 15 October and went off on 15 April. It couldn't be turned up or down - you would go down the street, it was thick snow and -20 degrees, and all the flats had their windows open because it was too hot in there.

Supply in shops was hit and miss. You would ask hopefully "Czy jest...?" ("is there?" and often get the reply "nie ma" ("there is none") accompanied by a sorrowful shake of the head. Milk was often sour by the time it reached the shops, and butter rancid. We queued for bread, and they often ran out.

Still want communism?

I paid my cleaner in dollars, and she earned more cleaning for me, three days a week, than a lawyer...

Disclaimer: I think i mentioned Cuba first, i was being ironic.
My father's from Santa Susannah. So Cuba I know already.

Does anyone of you remember that series of documentaries dedicated to Russia that was on the bbc in 2007 (I think)?

what does what mean? If you follow the posts its obvious. Someone said communism can never work due to "human nature" which, since it doesn't exist as a fixed and constant entity, can't be used as an excuse for the type of society we live in.

JustHecate - In my fantasy world, people would do what they loved, what they were good at - everyone has different skills and talents. People would go to a field that suited those talents. issue is with this, is no one's dream is to scrub the loos at a nightclub after closing... We need lots of people to do things they don't really enjoy or aren't fun because otherwise our society doesn't work, and stuff is a good incentive.

Cuba isn't communist, so not a good example really.

of course human nature exists. we can be,as whole, generally a bit more compassionate in some societies and a little less in others, finding things acceptable in one that would not be in the other, but those are just details.

No, ONE "human nature" does not exist. Our natures change and adapt and vary enormously for a million different reasons. There are no constant definitions of what this "human nature" that we all share is. It's just arrogant ethnocentric labelling that asserts that all humans that have ever lived share some kind of intrinsic nature. It's impossible.

Might have to go to Cuba for healthcare if Lansleys Health privatisation Bill goes through.. Surgery and a tan.

SWC - was his name Dawid/David? I think I met him!

my grandmother never got to see her mother again, her husband never got to see his son again, the communists destroyed their country. Not for me.

the main problem is humans and nature - humans are greedy and nature is cruel and requires survival of the fittest. We also have a lot of stupid humans.....

My polish friend recalls that there was a thriving black market in the vouchers. The old couple had no use for nappies and the young parents needed the nappies more than they needed the vodka.

So underlying the communist system was a black free market!

No system is perfect. the most important thing is that it is legitimate