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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Am I crazy or catholic church wrong to deny First Communion to Downs Syndrome child?!

235 replies

mummybiz · 19/01/2012 09:01

My ex parish and the ex school of my children - which we left after my son was bullied- another story) has gone a step to far this time in my opinion see tinyurl.com/7qkqz9a denying a Downs Syndrome child the chance to take his first communion. I can't think of this as anything other than blatant and horrible discrimination - what do you all think?

OP posts:
LynetteScavo · 20/01/2012 07:42

How come it's OK to say SN child, but not DS child? Confused

exoticfruits · 20/01/2012 07:49

I can't understand why people think that any 7yr old is of an age to decide. I think it all about their parent's beliefs than theirs. I would wait until they had some. My father got confirmed at 50yrs-it seems a good age to me!

Jux · 20/01/2012 08:10

I think that 7, or thereabouts, was considered the 'age of reason'. In other words, the child, thinking at the level of a 7 yo can understand to an extent what is required of them. When I was a child, you weren't confirmed until past age 16 but that age has come down since.

FHC is when you decide you will live within the edicts of the church, and as - at that age - you will be living with at least one adult who is a Catholic (appreciate there are exceptions, hiddenhome) you will almost certainly be living like that anyway.

Confirmation comes later, when you are in a position to make a properly informed choice and to confirm the promises which were made on your behalf by your godparents at Baptism, and the commitment you demonstrated when you made your FHC.

I was never confirmed as I was already having doubts about my faith in Catholicism when I got to that age.

So FHC isn't the final thing, though it is an important and solemn promise. 7yo is not too young to make it, imo.

Jux · 20/01/2012 08:11

They're on the news now.

Jux · 20/01/2012 08:15

He seems to be unable to sit still or concentrate for a few minutes, and has just shown people his bottom.

They haven't mentioned anything about the family's lack of participation in the life of the church, as per the original reason given by the church.

cantspel · 20/01/2012 08:23

There is no law that says a child has to take their first holy Communion at 7 and different churches do vary. It is normal in my parish to take Communion in year 5 so the children will be 10. My eldest child is special needs so i held him back a couple of years so he took his Communion at 12. That way he could understand the classes and he had a better understanding of what Communion is. His brother took his at same time and was 10.
They both did a years worth of preparation classes, then first confession and a few months later First Communion.

exoticfruits · 20/01/2012 08:35

A 7 yr old is catholic because his parents are, in a different family he would be atheist or Muslim etc. You do your best to bring your DC up in your beliefs, but they may well think differently. I think that the catholic church is wrong to take any 7yr old. Why not just take them all to the communion rail for a blessing and wait until they want to make a commitment?
My father was brought up a Methodist and signed the pledge at 8yrs-not to drink or smoke -and it was ridiculous, he didn't choose to do it and it was his parents who were Methodists.
The whole thing is 'catch them young and have them for life'-but it doesn't work that way.

CrunchyFrog · 20/01/2012 08:41

I was confirmed at 11. It didn't take, I'm an atheist now.

I don't have atheist children though. They are as yet undecided, long may it last! I'm quite sure DD will rebel and join the Brethren or something. I'll be on my knees begging her to get a tattoo/ something pierced/ go and drink buckfast down the beach, she'll be praying for my soul and wearing Sensible Shoes.

mathanxiety · 20/01/2012 15:31

When I was growing up in Ireland it was 6/7 for First Communion, preceded by Reconciliation (called Confession back then) then 11/12 for Confirmation, and it was done through school, with really no option to drop out. The local C of I parish had a similar no dropping out regime. The DCs went to a parish school in the US and First Communion was at 7/8, with Reconciliation at 9/10 and optional but heavily subscribed Confirmation at 13/14 and on. The parish ran a Religious Ed programme and between parish school and public school children the number for Confirmation was about 130 normally. Same for Communion each year.

Preparation was far more intense and involved far more reflection for my DCs for all three sacraments than I recall from my childhood. There was also a significant element of involvement by parents when it came to Communion and Reconciliation, with evening prayer services throughout the year of preparation, an invitation to parents to re-learn and maybe reconsider their own understanding of what they were at. It was up to parents to decide if they thought their child was ready for the preparation. There was absolutely nothing of that nature when I was growing up -- it was all done in school and parents showed up on the day to take pictures.

For my DCs, Communion prep focused on being the family of God and receiving a great gift from God, so a very child oriented theme, placing the sacrament in a context that the children could identify with at their stage of development. Reconciliation prep (again one full year) focused on breakdown of the relationship with God and how to maintain and mend it. When it came to what to wear, the Religious Ed office sent home a note suggesting that attire should be formal but that whatever the family would normally consider formal was acceptable. Nearly all the girls wore some sort of white dress and the boys wore ironed trousers, shirt, tie; some wore a jacket, some wore a jumper. One year, a boy had insisted that he wanted to wear a silver jacket with his navy pants, shirt and tie, and he did.

Both Communion and Reconciliation were prepared for with family members, through homework, meetings in the church and school hall and in the classrooms. Confirmation was a year long course, with monthly meetings held entirely through the parish and involvement by parents confined to nagging to do the homework. No classes were done in school hours. Volunteers from the parish acted as mentors and the children were expected to demonstrate personal commitment and responsibility by clocking up service hours (lots of scope for volunteering in the community), reflecting at length on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, interviewing people (family, neighbours) in association with the reflections, participation at an acceptable level at the monthly discussion/prayer meetings. Clothing for Confirmation ran the gamut from dresses that could be worn clubbing to sober suits for the girls, and heels went from flat to five inches. Boys mostly wore dark suits. I had to wear my school uniform to mine.

Catholics who present their children for baptism are asked to commit to teaching their children about their religion, to bring them up as Catholics. The Church does ask for commitment from parents and eventually from young adults at the time of Confirmation. I think it recognises that exposure to religious education and a Catholic upbringing doesn't always 'take', but it also recognises from centuries of experience that passing on religious beliefs through the family context works a lot of the time.

MildlyNarkyPuffin · 20/01/2012 15:52

It's been swapped around in some places - confirmation before FHC. And the age is getting younger. Bums on seats.

MildlyNarkyPuffin · 20/01/2012 15:53

How exactly is 11 a young adult??????

MildlyNarkyPuffin · 20/01/2012 15:58

In some areas of the UK confirmation is at 7.

exoticfruits · 20/01/2012 16:52

Perhaps the Catholic church should reconsider the age for everyone if it is a matter of understanding. I am sure it is a matter of pleasing adults to most 7 yr olds.

FatimaLovesBread · 20/01/2012 17:24

From reading the readers comments on the batley news site, there is definately more to this than what has been reported on.

Don't think it is discrimination at all

LurcioLovesFrankie · 20/01/2012 17:38

Interesting - was fairly neutral on this until I noticed it was in Dewsbury. Friends of mine have found the Leeds dioscese to be pretty intransigent on issues of interpretation of Catholic dogma, to the extent of refusing a memorial service for their DD because parents (one catholic, one aetheist) hadn't married in a Catholic church (not sure if their DD was baptised either, I think not, as she only lived 30 hours and much of that was spent undergoing heart surgery :( ) For what it's worth, the priest at Dewsbury minster (Anglican) is utterly lovely.

There's a marvellously moving account in Karen Armstrong's book "Beginning the World" of the boy she helps to look after (who is autistic) being christened by a priest prepared to tailor the christening service to what the child can understand (the child is quite old, and has taken to religion of his own choice), rather than expecting the child to fit to the requirements of the church.

LynetteScavo · 20/01/2012 17:59

How awful and Sad, LurcioLovesFrankie

Our old priest would have certainly given a memorial service/funeral. I am not Catholic, DH is and we did not have a Catholic wedding service. Our children have never suffered because of this. They have been more than welcomed into the church.

Any baby can be baptised by anyone...all you need for a baptism is a baby, some water and some words. But whether they were or weren't baptised is not the issue. If it offers comfort to Catholic parents, a Catholic service should be offered, IMO.

Pagwatch · 20/01/2012 18:01

A christening is a different kettle of fish though.
A new born can be christened, there is no assumption that the child has made a choice to participate.

The child in the news story is welcome to attend church - his parents chose not to take him.

mathanxiety · 20/01/2012 19:28

If he is as described by Jux 'He seems to be unable to sit still or concentrate for a few minutes, and has just shown people his bottom...' then maybe it is not possible to bring him to Mass and have him behave for the whole hour; perhaps there is no babies/small children's room in the parish church or any church nearby where he could let off steam.

If there hadn't been a cry room in my parish church DD3 wouldn't have been taken until she turned 4. I spent many an hour there on Sunday mornings, with the cc tv and sound sometimes on and sometimes off, and the Mass barely audible above the screeching and the general din for the most part even if they were on.

sieglinde · 22/01/2012 15:00

trouble is, exoticfruits, that lots of RC kids do want to take communion from quite a young age. My own dd was avid to do so from 5 or 6 - and yes, she DID get it, at 6. And yes, she did understand it, in as much as it can be understood.

What I seriously don't see is why this is so dreadful to atheists. I actually lost a friend over it - her idea, not mine. My children are RC now, but they might be anything or nothing in future - I can't see that being RC now will mark them ineradicably. If they decide it's all rubbish, they will be entirely free to leave. People don't rage in this way at people who make their children go to sports clubs or make them practice the piano, or at vegetarians or those who take children to theme parks. We all expect our children to lock step with us when small, and then they decide which bits of their upbringing to keep and which to chuck out. Honestly, if RC brainwashing is so effective, why are numbers declining? And if it isn't very effective, why the fuss?

thetasigmamum · 22/01/2012 15:06

Actually, seiglinde some people do get really arsey about kids being brought up as vegetarians from birth. :(

Agincourt · 22/01/2012 15:11

I was going to say, what would Jesus do? but that's more a CofE question, so i would say forget Catholicism and join another, more accepting christian denomination. i don't go to Church, infact I don't even believe in God but I understand that that Christianity is supposed to be non discriminatory and accepting to all and if a Church had excluded my own child with disabilities like that i would be FURIOUS

catsareevil · 22/01/2012 15:29

Agincourt

It seems from the information given that attending church regulary was not something that happened, so joining another church might be pointless.

There is no evidence that this child has been treated less favourably than anyone else as a result of his diagnosis.

Finally - WWJD? Who knows. I expect if he was aware of the Catholic church and what they have done over the years he would probably be horrified.

Agincourt · 22/01/2012 15:31

hemost probably would!

soverylucky · 22/01/2012 15:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sieglinde · 22/01/2012 16:18

It's not discriminatory - it's to do with the fact that the kid has hardly been to mass and also doesn't as yet understand what the event entails.

Grumpy face snarl - not everyone can just be invited to everything. The RC church has pretty tough rules excluding adults from communion unless they are RC. It's not a party snack.

thetasigma, I stand corrected on vegetarians, but it doesn't seem to come up as often in the press as our evil RC ways Grin for all I know, some people's freinds have dumped them because they let their dcs go to Alton Towers, too.

catsareevil - actually RCs think Jesus does know....:) Thing is, do you? I'm always AMAZED that people don't lead with the worst stuff, which is all connected with the Holocaust. Instead they blather on about witch trials and crusades, usually in error.

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