To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

[foglike]

To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

Thin end of the wedge.

They are not being asked to participate in abortions. They are pushing to not be on duty in a place where some women are having abortions. Follow that through to it's natural conclusion. They trying to use Human Rights legislation to interfere with the provision of abortion.

Go look at America. The anti abortionists tried for years to get Roe vs Wade overturned. It didn't work. They focused instead at chipping away bit by bit at the abortion services themselves by making it harder for them to operate. There are now states without any abortion services.

I'd love to know who's behind these women.

If I were a midwife it's somthing I would object to not on religious grounds but on the grounds of my mental health

It's one thing to help a family through term action on medical grounds but another to go do it just because

I think we underestimate how hard it is for midwifes to deal themselves with a death of a baby/newborn

But what woman would want to be cared for by someone who thought what she was doing was morally reprehensible

I went to a workshop on abortion at UK Feminista and the speaker was saying that lots of doctors refuse to carry out terminations on the grounds that there are so many people who refuse to do them on religious/moral grounds, that if you are willing to them, that means you get stuck doing them, cutting off access to learning about different specialisms, meaning that there are more and more doctors who are making up a religious or moral objection in order to further their careers.

I agree with the OP

"I can see no reason why we can't have individuals who deliver babies [ie midwives] operating who don't get involved in terminations. As I said in my previous post we NEED midwives delivering babies. My understanding is that labour wards and delivery suites are really stretched."

Everywhere's very stretched! There's a recession. If caring for women who have had or are going to have an abortion is in the remit of a particular department, then the staff of that department have a duty to care for them.

FFS, I bet they'd treat peadophiles, I bet they'd put their own feelings aside to treat other 'undesirables', it happens all the time. Abortion is legal in this country, no one has the right to conscientiously object to carrying out a legal procedure which is part of their job description.

It's like the soldiers who sign up for the infantry then decide they don't want to shoot people.

I'd love to know who's behind these women.

The Catholic church and pro life lobbyists probably.

PeanutButterCupCake this isn't something stirred up by the media these midwives stirred it up by raising the agenda they have.

As for suggestions that they should be shielded from the distasteful/upsetting duties so they can have all the warm bringing life into this world duties...whilst other midwives get the rough end of the stick is shocking.

2012 shouldn't be like this.

"But what woman would want to be cared for by someone who thought what she was doing was morally reprehensible"

It is also her duty to treat all her patients with dignity and respect, this includes keeping her own beliefs to herself.

"I think we underestimate how hard it is for midwifes to deal themselves with a death of a baby/newborn"

Abortion terminates a foetus, it's not a baby.

An aborted foetus is not born alive and allowed to die. The heart stops beating prior to delivery.

Actually it is the Mother's choice whether to terminate life before the delivery via an injection into the baby - some babies are born alive and then allowed to die, my friend did this with the daughter she terminated who had Patau's Syndrome - wouldn't have been my choice but the choice is available to the Mother either way.

I think the law has it about right at the moment. Midwifes should be able to opt out of being involved directly in abortions but should still provide after care. I have considered training a a midwife and no that I could never be directly involved in abortion.

It never fails to amaze me how some people's sympathy is with the foetus before that of the sapient woman.

rational how many women refer to it as " their foetus"? It's a baby in my eyes.

rational at what stage do you think these foetuses start to look like babys?

You can refere to them how you like but late termination of a fetus does not stop it looking like a baby

How many women getting terminations call it a baby?

Fact is, it's a foetus, romanticise it if you choose but it's still a foetus.

You think I'm a murderer?

I was reading a while back how there are vast areas of the US now where women cannot terminate a pregnancy.

In fact a catholic nurse was excommunicated for assisting in an emergency termination where the mother was dying. I will try to find the story.

It is not about "looks", it is about the legal distinction.

in the light of this you can understand why the midwives are worried

The church doesn't seem to very understanding even when a patient's life is in danger.

Havent read the whole thread, but where are midwives expected to carry out terminations??
In the hospital where i work terminations are done either in theatre (with scrub nurses, anaesthetists and surgeon/doctor) or on the gynae unit.
Midwives only work on ante natal, deliverysuite and post natal, its entirely separate, they dont cross units (note this only happens in holby city).

I am pro choice, but i do think those who oppose it on religious or moral grounds should not work in that area.
I went for a job on gynae, they asked me at interview about how i would feel doing terminations and that it was a big part of the job, i told them i was pro choice and got offered the job, a colleague went for the same job, she is pro life and was honest at interview, she did not get offered a post

Can I say my friend who terminated her Patau's daughter saw her as a baby and not a foetus - it may be a legal definition but I am not sure that is helpful to the people going through it. I know when she has her termination she was advised against not giving her daughter an injection to end her life before she was born. Her daughter lived for just under 2 hours after being born (much to everyone's surprise) and that must have been hard for the staff involved too. I do think people should have the right to conscientiously object to things that run contrary to your principles otherwise we are just automatons following orders. We need to have freedom of conscience in matters like this (same with euthanasia)

These midwives are not being asked to preform abortions

Some people seem to think they are. They're not. This isn't about their right to not be involved in carrying out abortions. It's aiming to extend that right. It's about them being the senior person on duty. It's not about them being in the room or even advising the people who are carrying out the abortions.

They want to force the NHS to pay for another person at their level to be on duty when they are, so they aren't the senior midwife, or to stop abortions from being carried out whilst they're on shift. If the NHS chose the first option they would be back at a tribunal demanding that they be given the shift supervisor pay level because otherwise they would be being unfairly punished for their moral beliefs

"People unwilling to carry out normal tasks associated with their job should be sacked"

Well, termination of a pregnancy is not a normal task of a midwife, she will come across it rarely. It involves the death of an unborn baby that she may have initiated when she administered the labour inducing drugs. Do you believe that anyone should be forced into this situation or have to live with this on their conscience? Especially if she finds abortion morally wrong?

One of the biggest (possibly the biggest) health care provider in the US is the Catholic church. They obviously don't allow abortion services but also make it very difficult for women to access contraception eg the morning after pill.

I don't see where I said that in any of my posts or commented on anyone's personal situation.

Mosschops
Late terminations that cannot be ended surgically are cared for on labour ward where labour is induced by drugs often administered by midwives.