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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

913 replies

foglike · 18/01/2012 11:30

To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

OP posts:
Moominsarescary · 18/01/2012 16:20

And yes we had a private room at the end of a corridor but I shared a bathroom and could hear the newborn babies through the wall

ClothesOfSand · 18/01/2012 16:21

HTONY, in the case this article refers to, they are not asking these midwives to care for women who have just had an abortion. They are asking them to arrange the staffing, deploy staff and so on. That is their role as a midwifery sister.

The reason that they are responsible for deploying those staff and being responsible for those staff is because the same group of staff will be responsible for late abortions, live births and still births and the care of women afterwards because the medical situation of those women after birth will be broadly medically similar.

It has not gone off topic at all. It is clearly central to the case that the same group of staff will be involved in all three types of care. Anybody wanting to carry out a role as a midwifery sister has to accept that they have to supervise and organise all of those staff. This is not the same as expecting the midwifery sister to be the member of staff for personally cares for the women or administers drugs prior to an abortion.

But she does have to supervise and organise staffing schedules for all the midwives on her team, and the midwifery team deals with abortions. You were claiming that not to be the case, which is why I had to point out that it cannot all be handed over to gynae nurses; it is the responsibility of the midwifery team as a group.

It is inevitably the role of a midwife who oversees a team of other midwives to create rotas and send some of her staff to provide care for women who have had abortions. If she feels unable to write those rotas and send staff to do that, she cannot do her job. She should either do a different midwifery job without supervisory responsibilities or she should get a different kind of supervisory job in the hospital. But putting late abortions under the care of gynae nurses who are not trained to do so, purely to create a false separation in the supposed role of the midwife team makes no sense.

ReneeVivien · 18/01/2012 16:23

maypole, not many healthcare providers actually enjoy the process of abortion. I'm sympathetic to that (have seen a few; would be happy not to see any more). But I do have a problem with midwives who argue their job is to 'promote life' (and many of them do say this). Their job is to promote health. Sometimes promoting health means dealing with the end of life.

Funnily enough, younger healthcare professionals seem much more squeamish about this than the older ones, who probably saw the results of backstreet abortion.

And babies born through termination are not left to die. If they are born alive, all efforts must be made to keep them alive.

ReneeVivien · 18/01/2012 16:24

Oh, and 'self inflicted situation': as has already been said, midwives only get involved with very late abortions, which are nearly all for medical reasons. Hardly 'self inflicted'.

ClothesOfSand · 18/01/2012 16:26

Maypole, I don't know what situation you are referring to.

If a baby is premature, sometimes the hospital staff and the mother will make the difficult decision that allowing that baby to die does the least harm and causes the least pain to the baby.

An aborted foetus is not born alive and allowed to die. The heart stops beating prior to delivery.

zzzzz · 18/01/2012 16:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

foglike · 18/01/2012 16:32

Ms Doogan, from Glasgow, has been absent through ill health since 2010 as a result of the dispute.

The cynic in me is wondering if she's being paid whilst in "ill health" and if that ill health was a convenient case of using the system for a holiday.

OP posts:
foglike · 18/01/2012 16:34

How's about employing midwives who can just do their job zzz?

It's a novel idea but it might just catch on if hospital administrators implemented it.

OP posts:
ReneeVivien · 18/01/2012 16:37

What happens to the women needing abortions then, zzzzz?

Some posters are talking as though this is an issue which affects only a few midwives, which can easily be accommodated without disturbing the patients.

I have worked in abortion services and maternity services, and I can promise you that a very, very significant number of nurses, midwives and gynaecologists don't want to be involved with termination. In some parts of the country this means that all or nearly all abortion services are contracted out. But the very late abortions can usually only take place in the NHS, and therefore we are talking about denying or delaying appropriate care to women in a truly desperate situation. If we extended the exemption to even indirect involvement in terminations, then you threaten the whole existence of NHS abortion care (and this has serious knock-on implications for contracted-out care: who the hell do you think trains the staff doing non-NHS abortions?)

maypole1 · 18/01/2012 16:41

foglike they were and prior to this abortions were handled on the guny ward not the goal post are changed

When they sighned up they were not told routine abortions would be part of their job

Stillborn yes

Termanations to ensure the mothers life yes

Routine and late term abortions just beause no

When new recruits are told routine abortions are now part of their job see how many midwifes we get

How up setting to go from a still born delivery to a late term abortion

Even I wouldn't fany that

ReneeVivien · 18/01/2012 16:43

Are you saying that 'routine' abortions have moved from gynae to maternity, maypole? do you have any evidence for that? Because I'm pretty certain that 'routine' (i.e. early) abortions have moved from gynae to non-NHS, if they've moved at all, and midwives are involved with only the very small number of late medical terminations that they have always been needed for.

maypole1 · 18/01/2012 16:43

Many if told 5 ten years down the line you will now be expected to deal with abortions they very well might of chosen a different type of nurseing

ReneeVivien · 18/01/2012 16:45

This is not a new issue, maypole, I promise you. I was dealing with this issue when I worked in abortion services 20-25 years ago, and when I was working in maternity services 15 years ago [crikey, how old am I].

foglike · 18/01/2012 16:45

What if the gynea nurses refused under the same ethic excuse ?

It's just shifting the blame isn't it?

Without stating the obvious this is religious bigotry and it's discrimination for a midwife to make judgements based on their beliefs.

The link offered up earlier summed it up in as much these midwives knew what they signed up for and now have another motive to gain some recompense.

I foresee sticky little hands in the barn milking the golden cow again.

OP posts:
ReneeVivien · 18/01/2012 16:45

I actually wrote the RCM policy paper on midwives and conscientious objection to abortion about 15 years ago, and it was an update then!

featherbag · 18/01/2012 16:46

All NHS staff can opt out of being involved in termination, IIRC I was asked as a student if I wanted to opt out on personal conscience. Religion has nothing to do with it. However, you can't refuse to care for someone post-termination if there is no-one else to do it, that will get you struck off.

foglike · 18/01/2012 16:47

Do you think some conscientious objectors would go as far as completely refusing to help someone in dire need featherbag?

OP posts:
milkshake3 · 18/01/2012 16:48

Women having late terminations are on labour ward in my experience because they are giving birth. They want an epidural. They need to be cared for there as they will be in labour. That is why midwives have to do it, not nurses. Before 20wks terminations can be carried out on a gynae ward under the care of nurses. Midwives have the right under their code of conduct to conscientiously object to giving care and it is up to the coordinator to organise the shift to take this into account. Caring for someone giving birth to a dead baby ( who has been injected by a doctor to stop its heart) is one of the most traumatic things I have ever done. But not half as traumatic for the poor family. I still think about them years later.

scarlettsmummy2 · 18/01/2012 16:49

haven't read all the posts but totally disagree with the op- a midwife should not be forced to carry out terminations if she doesn't feel it is morally right.

UnimaginitiveDadThemedUsername · 18/01/2012 16:50

This is a bit like some Clarkson-esque mechanic at a Toyota dealer refusing to work on the Prius.

featherbag · 18/01/2012 16:52

Fog if they did they deserve to be struck off IMO (and that really is my own personal opinion, before anyone bites me for it). But 'in dire need' would have to be clarified beyond all doubt.

foglike · 18/01/2012 16:55

I'd agree with you featherbag.

I'm just agog at how religious beliefs and judgements based on religious beliefs are still supported specially in this area where compassion is key.

OP posts:
Rational · 18/01/2012 16:58

People who are unwilling to carry out normal tasks associated with their job should be sacked. I don't care if it's due to their faith or not, if their faith was going to interfere with their duties they should have to rethink their career.

zzzzz · 18/01/2012 17:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PeanutButterCupCake · 18/01/2012 17:00

fog it's extremely unlikely that all the midwives/ nurses on a ward would be RC. Conscientious objection has been around for many years. Yet again something stirred up by the media.