To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

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To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

If stopping a heart is murder then a lot of bypass surgeons are in trouble....

peasant I would be devastated for her, of course.

I'd take as long as I could (if you only knew how late my surgeries overrun..)

There are several issues that would need addressing, including sensitivity to not wanting to see a male staff member/ STD screening/ continuing physical and mental safety of the patient/any supportive networks she had/ what her pre-existing worldview/moral position was..

...but to cut to what I think you are interested in, firstly I would not say anything for a long time, but listen,listen, listen, and thenI would say something like,

" I am so sorry that you find yourself in this difficult situation.."

I'd hope to be able to explore all the other options open to her,if she wanted to discuss them, including keeping the baby and adoption, and also let her know how much 'thinking time' she had, depending on the stage of her pregnancy.

Of course, she may have come to a settled opinion that an abortion was what she wanted, in which case I would say "we all have to make decisions for ourselves, and (from the point of view of my personal faith) I decided not to be invloved in termination procedures"

I would explain that this had no bearing on her care generally, and that my door would always be open if she had anything she wanted to discuss in the future regarding the assault/abortion/tonsillitis/whatever.

Then I would give her the number of our self-referral abortion service allied to/ funded by the NHS here.

There are lots of other things I'd do, saying "If I was in your position this is what I'd do" isn't one of them, it's not relevant to her life and her choice.

I would hope she'd realise that I did care about her and her ongoing physical and mental wellbeing.

at entropy.
Time to go now charlene....

charleneanna have you ever squashed a spider used fly spray ect

charle I think if we were going to hear 'the truth' as you so inaccurately refer to it, we would have done it by now. So why not change the record?

Can I ask a genuine question???
For those of you who agree what's ur opinion on participation in legal euthanasia???
Should all health care professionals be forced to perform that of it was legalised?

no, i haven't, why?

BadDay off to bed after this - but - quite frankly - yes.

The HCP in question when I was a young un ought to have just shut up and done her job. I don't care about her private opinions; I don't need to know them. If she is a professional she ought to be able to keep them to herself.

I really do think that HCPs need to divorce their private moral scruples from their professional duties. An HCP participating in abortion is not making a private ethical choice, they are just facilitating someone else's choice - a choice which that person has a legal right to make. Their scruples aren't on a parity with the decision of the woman about her own body.

McHappy why stop at spiders? What about bacteria?? Poor little things.....

I bet charle has murdered millions of life forms.....

Oh and btw there is nothing special about beating hearts. If you culture heart cells on a flat tissue culture plate they begin to spontaneously beat. There is no magic, or soul required, just the right type of cells. Cool huh?

time just saw your post and wanted to answer it before going.

Thanks for responding. I have to say I still really disagree with your approach, tho' I think it is an ethical one in as much as you have clearly thought carefully about what you would do in that situation.

It's really hard to say you appreciate someone's position but fundamentally disagree with them - but I do with you - I have experienced sexual assault, tho' not rape, and if I were faced with that attitude from a HCP in that situation I'd feel sick and hugely let down. I'd expect the NHS to really help me do what I needed, not just pass me a phone number.

I hope that doesn't feel like an attack - it isn't meant to - but as someone with pastoral care duties to young people I think you're really wrong here and could end up making someone feel badly judged and adrift. Anyhow, thank you for answering, and I do respect your private feelings, just think they shouldn't affect how you treat people at work.

well carry on to the bacteria that live off bacteria.

nobody would care if it was a mrsa bacteria being killed off, yet people let there heart rule.

so does the hiv virus deserve to live.

the question i have to ask is when is life important enought to 'keep'

I think you'll need to define that better for an answer, Happypants, not exactly sure what you mean?

peasant off to bed too.
Thanks for your thoughtful posts too....nice that at least two of us on here are agreeing to disagree pleasantly

I think it's important that people be enabled to follow their consciences.
I think there can be all sorts of bad consequences when people are cut off from their own sense of what is right ie. following orders to do something.
War and concentration camps come to mind.
Having said that I would think a good Catholic could be happy to provide pre and after care. To me that is different from being involved in the actual termination. Caring for those in need is a pretty basic part of being a nurse or midwife you would think.
My own views ? Fairly pro-life but coming from a liberal not a conservative viewpoint. I'm also generally pro-choice but about life in general not just regarding termination. HTH

what i have said.......when does life become imprtant.

Well some people think we shouldnt exterminate viruses entirely.....I say fuck viruses.

It's not about when is life impotent enough to keep

It's individual circumstances and the rights of a women to choose not to have a baby she doesn't want, not to bring a baby into the world if it has a disability if she doesn't think she could cope or believes that it would have no quality of life or if there is a strong possibility it would die soon after birth

juggling - up to a point. My conscience made me a vegetarian, but if I took a job as a canteen manager in a hospital and then said 'eating meat and fish is wrong so we aren't going to serve it' I think the catering company would probably get rid of me, not allow me to insist everyone else has to live by my principles.

There was a registrar who tried to claim that as a Christian, she should be allowed to opt out of performing civil ceremonies for gay couples. She got the sack and IIRC an industrial tribunal upheld the employer.

Happypants, I don't think theres a definitve answer to that. It means different things to different people, and another thing again, legally. I also think your personal views can change throughout your life, depending on your experiences.

Peasant. All HCP's should act professionally and keep their personal opinions to themselves, I agree. There is no excuse for not doing so.
All hcp's should be professional and give pre/post care to everyone, in a respectful and non-judgemental manner.
But to ask the staff who will find difficulties being involved in administering drugs to induce a termination, look after that woman in what is essentially a labour and deliver the fetus is a big ask for a person, regardless of their moral/ religious beliefs.
To force someone to do those acts against their moral standings is not reasonable, imo.
The women undergoing the procedure will be far better off being cared for by someone who are comfortable with it.

Edam, the midwives aren't saying that they want the NHS to 'stop serving' abortions. They just don't want to be involved in them. The equivalent comparison would be you refusing to prepare the meat or fish or put it on the plate but you'd be happy to do everything else - serve the veg etc and someone else would just take care of the meat part of the meal.

Peasant some practices have a list stating who does / does not refer for terminations or offer contraceptions. So can avoid awkwardness of consulting with someone with diff beliefs. This may upset someone who regularly sees one HCP but then in a different time of need find they do not support this. Also if nothing is picked up at appointment booking then these scenarios cannot be avoided. It is the one area of opt out allowed from yrs ago. As someone suggested some Dr' s with faiths that ban alcohol want to be able to opt out of treating.
By the way a lot of areas the lady has to phone to book her own appt for a termination and HCP and others cannot do it for them. One step to preventing force