To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

[foglike]

To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

Two things medical staff should never be forced to preform is abortion and euthanasia

What if that become legal would you expect my palletive care nurse oh to help put people to death as part of his duties
It's all right people banging on about what others must do when they don't have to dispose of the dead babies ECt

"don't have to dispose of the dead babies"

Foetuses.

And if said nurses chose to work in an area of care which involved euthanasia and abortion then they should be expected to participate in all aspects of that care. If not, they should work elsewhere, preferably out of the care profession, and free up their job positions for people who "really" care.

Learning, do you know what is involved in a medical termination at 22 weeks and what the 'service provision' involves?

Why Rational when they can just look after someone else that day? Late terminations are few and far between you know.

badday yes I do. Very well. I did say it was not necessarily my personal belief or opinion that things should be considered in this manner.

BadDayAtTheOrifice

As bad as it may be for anyone to be involved in a late termination (I accept it cannot be pleasant fir anyone involved) I can pretty much guarantee that the person most affected by it is the woman herself. She is having to go through the horror of having her foetus diagnosed with a debilitating condition and the late term abortion. She needs all the care she can get.

GPs don't have to refer a woman for abortion if they have a moral objection to it so I think that should extend to the midwives and they should not have to attend,supervise or provide pre/aftercare for a procedure which they morally object to.

Thats why its important the care they are given comes from someone who wants to care for them, Rational.

Well I might not want to care for the peadophiles that may come into the hospital but it is my professional duty to do so.

Rational - I think in this case the 'late term' abortion is up to 24 weeks so not necessarily due to a debilitating condition. Women can abort a perfectly healthy foetus up to 24 weeks according to the current law. Abortions after 24 weeks and up to term are only allowed for medical reasons.

No one is taking about people who need to have abortions but the ones who want to

And speaking as somone who is related to somone who has had 3 just because they don't like using condoms and the pill makes them fact it's not all ways the case that mothers are horrified my sister actally rung to see if my birthday party was still on tried in vain to join me in clubbing a meat 7 hours after a abortion

Rational the issue is the goal post have been changed midwifes have never been asked to do this before now they are

My oh has not been asked to carry out euthanasia but if it become legal would he be in his right to refuse he is opposed to it and that's not what he signed up for when he joined as per the midwifes

If they wanted to carry out help with abortions they would of got a job with Maria stops

Rational - you aren't being asked to terminate/assist in the termination of the peadophile.

Rational how would you know somone is a kiddy fiddler

Most nurses, midwifes find the concept so awful not because teir against choice because their job is about doing NO harm and perserving life

They don't want to be involved with the destroying of it

hypothetically a midwife could arrange at a local level with their manager or colleagues not to be involved with a particular patient.

The problem would arise is if there wasnt anyone else to delegate this work to. And where the line would/could/should be drawn. We wouldnt expect staff to decline to treat patients with different religious beliefs or sexual orientation or lifestyle choices - that would be against most equality and diversity policies.

Rational, Can you not understand that for a lot of people termination of a pregnancy equates to the ending of a life? And that some people may have difficulty in being the initiating factor in that death?

I agree, no one should be forced to perform abortions or euthanasia.

But, abortion has been legal for many years, and, as many others have stated, abortions/terminations in maternity wards are usually a necessity, not an actual choice, so objection, whilst understandable, is still not an acceptable reason for refusing pre or post operative care.

If and when euthanasia becomes legal, I could fully understand health care professionals objecting and opting out of participating as this would be a substancial change to their conditions of employment. But I would expect any health care professional who accepted employment after any new legislation would either have to make it very clear in their acceptance of employment contract or just do something else.

The midwives bringing this case are extremists. They aren't being asked to assist in abortions, they are objecting to being responsible for delegating, supervising and supporting other members of staff who are prepared to do this work. So if one of them is the only sister on duty, and a woman arrives who needs medical help, these midwives think they can sit on their high horses and leave junior staff unsupervised.... it beggars belief.

The whole point of the current system is that if surgeon X or Doctor Y or Sister Z doesn't want any involvement in abortions, AN Other member of staff will care for the patient. These midwives want the right to stop that - to prevent other members of staff who are willing to care for patients from offering that care. This isn't about them being allowed to follow their beliefs, it's about them insisting on obstructing patient care.

BadDayAtTheOrifice what I ment but put in a better way

A life giver dose not want to be a angle of death

YANBU. My mother can't stand smoking, but she isn't going to refuse to care for someone who has lung cancer.

They aren't being forced to carry out abortions, it's the pre-and-post care that they need to carry out, and it's their job to do it regardless of how they feel about the person.

Agree with Bupcakes on the very first page.

edam - does 'supervising' those junior staff involve them sitting on the termination and stepping in should any problems arise? Do you know what is involved in those late term terminations? I'm not sure it is fair to expect someone who finds abortion morally wrong to stand and watch as a foetus is dismembered and extracted with forceps.

Flowery, just so you are aware, late terminations involve no 'operative' care. It is an induced labour, and mothers are fully conscious.

Norman-remember I said I was pro choice...obviously those who choose to have a termination do not consider themselves 'baby killers'[your term not mine]but the midwives of whom we are speaking would consider themselves to be doing just that so it would be wrong to expect them to take part in the process.Caring for the patient pre and post procedure should be part of the job.It's their right not to be actively involved that I support.

"Rational how would you know somone is a kiddy fiddler"

My sister worked as a nurse in a prison, she knew she was dealing with peadophiles.