To think that the West is seriously fucked up on the bosom front?

[Hullygully]

Bags of poison sewn into our infant feeding parts.

How fucked up is that?

In old China some girl had foot binding. It made them feel more attractive, smaller feet etc. They could hardly walk. In England in 2011 women have poisoned themselves. In England years ago women put lead on their faces (make up) and were poisoned thereby. Plus ca change.

No one has answered my questions really.

Why do people think "normal" is a large chest? What is wrong with a flatter chest? Plenty of men are happy with those and they get in the way much less. Why does appearance matter? Do those who think it does need more time in church or washing the feet of the poor? Are they selfish and vain? Wither went our castigation of the sin of vanity.

Anyway as I said the chickens have come home to roost now. Yes it does affect (not effect) others if you have it done. It sends out a message to all including your daughters that womena re not oaky as they are and they need to go through surgical procedures to change the body God/nature gave them and that they cnanot be content psychologically within themselves presumably because they on't earn much, live off male earnings and define themselves solely by their sexual capital (I suppose they will now all tell me they earn £500k a year and I shall skulk back to my work).

Most men I know think breast implants are horrible. In fact, of the three women who I know who have had them for cosmetic reasons, all of them have been dumped by their husbands (and not for younger, fuller-breasted models!).

I am almost completely flat chested. AA cups are too big.
My dh has never given a shit. I always had loads of boyfriends. Seriously hot, good looking, wealthy, smart, boyfriends.
I always wonder why women grow up feeling they are wrong somehow, why to be flat chested is 'wrong' when no one in my life has ever given a toss.

Interesting questions Xenia. I suppose people aspire to having large, full breasts because they see it as a status marker. Vanity is no longer frowned on, but frumpiness is. Looking like you don't invest in yourself is not a good career move.

willowisp

maybe you think it's "lucky" to have a c cup, but not everyone does

and i suppose given your criteria that makes me "unlucky" "unfeminine" and "abnormal" to have always been flat chested then...

poor old me? I don't think so

not everyone who is flat chested wants to have implants or look different

i like the way I look. i don't think I'm abnormal or unlucky and I think what you say is rather rude to people like me

oh and i have short hair too, probably that's not considered feminine by some people either

and what the is a feminine shape anyway? barbie i suppose

this discussion is going round in circles now, and i have to say i find a lot of the pro implant posters quite willfully blinkered, and extremely judgemental....as your "abnormal" and "lucky" comments show IMO

And 'beauty comes from within' is true.

Anyone read Shane Watson on botox in the Times mag yesterday?

yes. Gosh if only I had bigger breasts I could have done so much better.
I never found have a flat chest = frumpy. That is a peculiarly batty notion.

of course a flat chest doesn't equal frumpy, but it does affect the fit of mass produced clothes

Don't be silly. I have no more difficulty buying clothes for my shape than most people. Certainly I have no more problems than my chesty sisters.
Every body shape has challenges.
That is as daft as me saying 'being large busted is grim because you can't ever go without a bra'

Gah - spooky - the longer threads go on the more it becomes like groundhog day - ever decreasing circles where people start quoting your comments back at you.

But please - no more comparison of women with small breasts to women who have had mastectomies.
We have 10" scars from sternum to armpit (often hypertrophic or keloid), no nipples and often truncal lymphoedema too.

The decision to reconstruct a breast following cancer treatment is NOT the same as deciding to subject yourself voluntarily to surgery in order to fulfil some notion of what is considered attractive in this society.

The fashion industry constructs clothing for small breasts, not large. It is much easier to buy nice clothes if you have a B cup or less.

Why do people assume that all women have breast enlargements for the same reasons? Or that it has anything to do with attracting or keeping men? Or that they don't have anything else in their lives? Or that they are appearance obsessed?

I don't know what the process is to assess whether or not a woman should have implants. I assumed that the woman would have to go under some kind of psychological assessment. Obviously if a woman can have therapy to make her accepting of her body that is preferable to undergoing cosmetic surgery with all the associated risks.

But it seems to me that the posters on here either haven't been through that process or that the surgery they have had hasn't actually resolved the underlying psychological issue either.

Because it is normal to have very small breasts, isn't it? I mean it is no more abnormal that me the height of an average man. Until recently, women's clothes shops almost never sold clothes that fitted women of my height. I had to pick from a very narrow range of clothes. But I never felt that I wasn't normal. Perhaps if there was lots of pressure on women to be five foot five, and surgeons were offering leg surgery to reduce height, I'd feel differently.

Posters on here do seem to be saying that it just is not normal to have small breasts. I had small breasts until I was in my early twenties, when they suddenly got a bit bigger. I never felt that I wasn't normal; I was happy with my appearance. The fact that women still have a warped perception of what is normal or feminine even after having surgery suggests the psychological issue is still there. That happens a lot, doesn't it? Women who have one go at cosmetic surgery are much more likely to remain dissatisfied, to go back and have other changes to their breasts or feel that other parts of their body are not normal and change those too.

There seems to be some kind of confused thinking that people making a judgement on implants is somehow judging women on their appearance, but then going on to say that women with naturally small breasts are not normal, not natural, not female, not feminine, frumpy and so on. Having a body shape that many women have and deciding that it is such a huge issue that you are prepared to take the risks of major surgery to get rid of that body shape, that is one hell of a judgement, especially if you continue to maintain the issue was with that body shape that other women still have, and not a psychological one of your self esteem.

Of course small breasts are normal. Large/pert/saggy/droopy breasts are normal too and they mostly all do the job they were meant to do, which is feed children. I actually quite liked my smallish (A cup) breasts, I just wanted them bigger. Not because I wanted to conform to any 'norm' and in fact, at the size I have gone to, most wouldn't see that as normal anyway, certainly not for my husband, who didn't want me to have the second enlargement (had the first before we were together) but for myself, because I personally like the look of larger breasts and wanted them.

I love my breasts as they are but they really aren't a huge part of my life, nor is anything about my appearance. I like to look 'nice' if I go out, which isn't often, but I rarely wear make up or do my hair otherwise and walking, training and showing my dogs is the main part of my life other than my family.

How on earth can me putting my own opinion about myself be construed as being rude to you ?

If you're happy being flat chested, great. I am happy for you.

I wasn't, so I changed it for ME, no one else. It has had no affect on my career, no affect on attracting men.

What is a shame is me being made to feel that I'm some sort of demon for women. I have wrinkles, stretch marks, bushy pubic hair & wear wooly cardigans most days. I don't prop my bosom up & flaunt them, I don't wear fake tan & I don't watch porn.

Having a boob augmentation because you are flat chested or if you have had a mastectomy or having a reduction because you are too big, it's about feeling better or good about yourself. It's no-one else's business.

Don't assassinate my character with your narrow minded views.

This is going to get very dull and boring if people just talk about themselves and get all huffy.

I think the bigger picture is much more interesting, the whys and wherefores etc rather than the teeny tiny personal.

Especially as it has been made clear 4,000,0000,00000,0000 times that it is not a personal attack on individual choice. It is about questioning what kind of scoiety creates and encourages that choice.

Midori - I thought your name was familiar! of course, you are a dog person. Human beings are always more complex and interesting than we think. I would never have thought that a person whose main interest was all things doggy (unfortunate phrasing) would have their breasts enlarged. Twice.

I made an untrue categorization.

May I ask why you did? As in, what made you want bigger breasts? I know you say you like the look of them, do you mean you saw them around you on others/pictures etc and found them pleasing?

I am genuinely interested.

Hully, I do agree that the wider debate is interesting, however, it's debatable as to whether people's individual choices are being Attacked. It's obvious from some comments that people have pre conceived ideas as to the type of woman who has cosmetic surgery and their reasons for it and that too is relevant. I doubt doubt that some women have surgery in order to conform to what they believe is normal, but that doesn't mean everyone does.

As for implants being 'poison' where is the evidence to suggest this is true? Medical grade silicone is also used in infant colic remedies, are we poisoning our babies too?

Of course women are the worst for judging and bitchiness against other women, after all we are competing with each other in biological terms for the best men. The overlay of social living can neutralise this and allow bonds and alliances to be formed between women but if a man conflict arises mostly it destroys the relationship (nb in heterosexually oriented individuals). Sad but a fact. Post fertility women become less of a threat I suppose, which is nice.

if you have had a mastectomy

Breast reconstruction is NOT breast augmentation.
I figure I'll just keep saying that until the penny drops.....

My problem is definitely not the individual choices (and some posters like midori have demonstrated that they can argue very rationally and persuasively), however,

My problem is that by inflating their chests midori and others collectively alter the perception of what is viewed as "normal" and "acceptable" for the next generations of young women. Therefore, although valid, I do not believe that their choice should be entertained by the medical profession unless there is a clear clinical need. There is no clinical need for such an intrusive operation just to increase a 'small' cuppage. Besides, in the light of PIP scandal, it is also evident that not only the risks cannot be properly quantified, but in cases where it all goes wrong the same health care providers refuse to, ahem, provide care...

As banks are not at liberty to do what they want - whether people support free market ideology or not - and should be closely regulated, the cosmetic surgery industry should finally be brought in line of what is an acceptable and what is not an acceptable list of procedures where there is no clear clinical need.

Absolutely bemybebe

In many PCTs a prophylactic mastectomy (in order to ward off breast cancer for those at proven high risk) is approved only after extensive and prolonged psychological investigation and consultation.

But if you want bigger tits you can just go and buy them.

Breast reconstruction is NOT breast augmentation.

Yes it is. In most cases you reconstruct a breast with an implant - the breast size is increased - augumentated. They use the same silicone implants, it's plastic surgery. The same surgeons do reconstructions for cancer patients & non cancer patients.

What's your point ? And what is the point of your point ?

Hi Midori, I didn't come on the thread with the idea that women have implants because they think small breasts are not normal, not feminine etc - I'm just picking that up from what posters are saying about their surgery. People I have known who have had implants have done so to change overall shape rather than to make them bigger. I've heard them make comments similar to yours. They've not had perceptions about categories like feminine or normal.