To think that the West is seriously fucked up on the bosom front?

[Hullygully]

Bags of poison sewn into our infant feeding parts.

How fucked up is that?

YAVDNBU!

Even if you are flat chested, you will probably have nipples. After reconstructive surgery you don't. You can get rubber ones that you stick on or you can get a tattoo which doesn't stick out. My mum is almost concave chested, but she still has nipples and she still breastfed. She has a tiny waist and I am built like a bin.

I don't understand your perspective silent - it's ok if you have scars already? Boobs that look like empty socks were not my normal iyswim. If you're flat chested you're missing something too aren't you particularly if you had breasts before. Actually I think flat looks ok, I would have been happy with flat - I was not happy with the empty sock look.

I've looked at the pictures of the women who had breast surgery and I agree with whoever said they look beautiful.

Yes I see what you mean - flat with nipples looks fine to me - I didn't like how empty mine looked. I found it awful..

I agree the women in the link who have had breast surgery DO look beautiful yet clearly some women who have had surgery feel the need to have a breast 'shape' reconstructed. This seems to be acceptable to the vast majority of posters on this thread. Why then, does it seem unacceptable for a woman who has not had surgery due to breast cancer but suffers similar anxiety about the appearance of her breasts, to have augmentation?

It is very sad that our society puts so much pressure on a woman to look a certain way that she would choose bigger looking breasts over her incredible ability to feed her babies and in so doing sacrifice all sensation in a very sensual body part!

Naomi Klein in The Beauty Myth puts this much better than me, read it today and buy it for your daughters!

?It's all our business if a culture has been created that results in healthy women finding it necessary to undergo major surgery and various types of mutilation in order to preserve their self esteem as human beings.?

I agree with the point you make SkaterGrrrrl but it seems to me that women who have breast augmentation are judged far more harshly then women who have had rhinoplasty or pinnaplasty for example.
Also it is my understanding that the majority of women who have had a BA can still BF their babies if that choose to do so.

I do agree with you to a certain extent Spareus.
But as I said above, if a woman has serious issues with her bodyshape in that it is destroying their mental health, and the NHS agree then absolutely go for it.
My issue is women , who probably have lovely breasts anyway, feel that they have to change their shape because it's what they see in the media.
And that is getting increasingly common.

Usually with a BA, you can breastfeed afterwards. If you have a reduction then you usually can't because the milk ducts have to be cut in that case.

And can I just add, I don't think the woman on that link look beautiful.
They do look real though.

completely agree skatergrrrl

am i the only person who thinks that this hatred by some women of their perfectly healthy breast tissue is a bit body dysmorphic?

A very dear friend of mine didn't survive breast cancer, and I would feel incredibly bad on her behalf if I wasted my life worrying about what my breasts look like... and mine have always been bee stings, now after 3 babies and years of breastfeeding they look like they've been ironed flat, but I honestly couldn't give a crap

and (prepares to be lynched) why don't people just step away from the mirror and enjoy themselves rather than navel gazing about something that quite frankly should not IMO matter that much

?The more people that have breast implants the greater the peer pressure is on those that dont. People having breast implants now are making the world a harsher place for my DD to grow up in.?
Exactly ? everyone who says it?s an individual choice: The trend for surgery is a cultural shift, not isolated personal decision. Why are thousands of women suddenly deciding now to get breast implants when 20 or even 10 years ago, they didn?t? They are responding to something in our culture /media/advertising telling them their natural bodies are not good enough.

PS The poster who described her body as ?ruined? because her breasts changed after having kids? jeez. I mean, seriously, get a grip. I work with profoundly disabled people whose bodies don?t work. At all. Duchennes Muscular Dystropy ruins your body. Not smaller breasts following BF.

and if it does matter taht much why don't women consider psychiatric help before carving their breasts up?
i know I am going to be in for it now

ps i speak of non post mastectomy/trauma breast implants here btw

YY BeagleEyes I wholeheartedly agree with what you say about media pressure. Yet women who choose to have a BA for similar reasons to a woman who chooses reconstruction after mastectomy, seem to have incurred the wrath of many other posters on this thread.

SpareUs I was commenting on the thread as a whole rather than your most recent points - at the start of a thread, a poster described how she chose to have implants and she no longer has feeling in her breasts and could not BF.

SkaterGrrrrl - whilst I appreciate that because of your job you see people a hell of a lot worse off than I ever was, that doesn't mean I'm not entitled to feel unhappy with empty sock effect boobs. What do you think about people who wear push up bras - is that wrong as well? As I said - a lot of people's boobs look fine after breastfeeding and kids, but mine didn't for me. You may think I need to get a grip but you are not me so you don't think like me.

And nobody has yet answered why women who have breast implants come in for so much vitriol, but not people who wanted to fix their hook noses, or actually, have a breast reduction which does interfere with the function of the breast. Why the difference in attitude according to the type of procedure?

It's unnecessary. Having a hook nose or a terrible scar on your face is one thing but having breasts that aren't the same as the ones that 18 year olds have isn't a pre-requisite for a healthy happy life.

We are doing it to enhance our sexual attractiveness to men (competing with other women is part of that package). We need to admit to ourselves that's what it is, then let ourselves off the hook for not being the perfect air-brushed image of loveliness that we have made ourselves believe we should be.

Wearing make-up is done for the same reason - but it doesn't risk lives or cost thousands of pounds that could otherwise go to people that haven't got breasts because they haven't got enough food to eat.

It's the normalising of these expensive procedures that worries me.

silentcatastrophe, I suppose, I might be considered 'disfigured'. My legs are covered in very large, very obvious burn scarring. Obviously a lot of the time my legs are covered, so it's not visable, but it has never occurred to me not to wear shorts or swimwear. Maybe as I grew up like that, but I haven't ever really even considered it. I always felt that if people didn't like to look at it, they could look the other way. I could have chosen 'cosmetic' surgery on my scars, but I didn't. That would have been seen as acceptable by society though, no doubt, but I don't care about them, so I didn't want to do it. I did want to change my breasts, so I did.

Most people throughout the world and ages, media or not have wanted to look a certain way. Be that painting their faces with arsenic to be fashionable or certain cultures heavily tattooing or piercing themselves. Surgery is the extreme end of the scale, and I appreciate that, but most cosmetic surgeries are fairly minor procedures in the scheme of things. Lipo is actually one of the most risky, but not many people realise that.

I will never understand though, why women are so scathing of each other.

Breast implants are a womens choice and they have the right to have them without other people judging their reasons. I have implants and do not regret them one bit and they look and feel natural - no-one would notice they were implants - but more importantly they make me feel better I cant understand why that upsets do many people who dont know me - they seem to get upset that I chose to have this operation... risks? sure there are risks - life is full of risks and for some people it is a risk worth taking.

The difference as I see it between having breast enhancements, and breast reduction, reconstructive surgery, or surgery to alter a hook nose, for example, is this:

Firstly, breast reduction is usually done because the weight of the breast is causing the woman physical discomfort. It also does not involve implanting a foreign object that could present a health risk.

Reconstruction after surgery, or correction of a severe imbalance, is similar to surgery such as rhinoplasty. In an ideal world, nobody should feel the need to have surgery to 'correct' such a 'defect', however, we live in an imperfect world where there are many people who are unkind to others because of their appearance. If your appearance deviates in a very obvious way from what is considered normal, then this can be hard to deal with mentally. Surgery is the only way that the burden of having to cope with judgement on a day to day basis can be removed.

On the other hand, it is perfectly normal for women's breasts to come in all shapes and sizes - some round and pert, some small, some droopy. The media and our pornifed, consumerist culture is trying to tell women that anything other than round and pert breasts are not normal when they absolutely are. This in turn creates a culture where (women fear that) other people will view them as abnormal. It is a vicious circle- the more that women alter their breasts, the more that small or droopy breasts are seen as abnormal, and the more that women will feel pressured to alter them.

What about the women who say that they had the implants for theirselves, and that there was no noticeable difference to the outside world because they always wore a pushup bra etc.

Firstly, it is sad that our society has created a situation where these women felt that their bodies were somehow not normal or undesirable.

Secondly, it is sad that their only remedy is to create a health risk for themselves (long term health risks through poisoning from the chemicals used undeniably exist even if most women consider the risk acceptable).

Thirdly, it is sad that the women don't have or feel that they can't get a partner who will appreciate their body for what it is (again, because of the culture that has create unrealistic expectations). Especially when such pressures only seem to come to bear on women, and trouble only an extreme minority of men.

Fourthly, each woman who chooses to have surgery to 'correct' a normal body is contributing to society's appreciation of such normality as being abnormal and undesirable. She is then making it harder for other women to freely choose not to have surgery and to take on health risks.

So no, I don't believe a woman's right to 'choose' in this situation should be applauded because a) she is not in fact making an entirely free choice, and b) she is making it harder for other women to freely make a healthier choice.

"Breast implants are a womens choice and they have the right to have them without other people judging their reasons."

Have you not read the other posts? Your choice to have implants affects not just you but other women, so it is most certainly our right to judge you.

Great post, Thistledew.

SallyAnne, we are absolutely judging the reasons for having cosmetic breast augmentation. Because it reflects the skewed society that we live in, where women are increasingly portrayed as porn fodder for men. Why do yours make you feel better? Because you feel that you have 'better' breasts. But who is defining that 'better'? It certainly doesn't reflect what, for the majority of women, is actually 'normal'. As per Thistledew's post.

It is/was absolutely your choice to have it done. But just consider a little more deeply the reasons why you felt you needed to have it done.

Not all women who have a BA want a result that gives them round, pert breasts or 'pornified' breasts.
I still don't understand why it is considered acceptable to have major facial surgery to 'conform' to society's view of what is 'normal'. Why should a woman who has large ears that stick out feel that she has to have surgery? How is her choice in any way different to the woman who chooses to have a BA?
I know two women who have had a breast reduction. Although the discomfort of physically dealing with large breasts was a factor in their decision to have them reduced, it was mostly the comments from other people that caused them the most anxiety. Yet they don't seem to be judged in the same way as women who have a BA who suffer from the same anxiety.

'Breast implants are a womens choice' How much of that 'choice' is subconsciously about how they feel men/society want them to look? Or about the warped view of what is normal/attractive? is it really 'for themselves'.

Thinking of it logically as being cut open and having things stuffed in you-is that a good choice? Why not accept the way we are as normal (bar disfigurement) and then there would be less pressure to look that way. The more people that have it the worse for everybody else. Why do women feel the need to do this? Is it OK to make a business out of women's insecurities? To label ordinary breasts as scales of droopiness and something that needs 'correction'.