To think that the West is seriously fucked up on the bosom front?

[Hullygully]

Bags of poison sewn into our infant feeding parts.

How fucked up is that?

perception
I can completely understand wht you felt you needed/wanted to do this if you work in the beauty industry. The pressure and expectation on you to look perfect will be greater than most. I still find it very sad that anyone feels they have to do this to themselves.

Interesting you mention tattoo removal.

I have been looking at a couple of tattoo magazines today, and I was struck by something.

The women in the magazines look REAL. And in the majority of photos and interviews they were not sexualised, but presented as 'people'. Naked breasts are part of the 'body as art'. In the pictures that are a bit the photos aren't airbrushed. They have real skin. I got a little glimmer of hope that at least in an alternative publication women look 'normal' (for want of a better word) :)

'The industry is making people feel better who would not have felt bad in the first place without the industry'

But people have cared about how they look since time began. Some people care more than others, rightly or wrongly. The industry could not exist without a pre-existing demand for it iyswim. So I don't really agree that the industry existed first and brainwashed people into thinking they needed it.

A business cannot succeed without a demand for it that comes first. We buy all sorts of things that we don't need on the most basic level - so how far would you say the selling of a product of any kind is acceptable or unacceptable?

Yo Hully I think thats almost exactly what I said in my last two posts...are you ...agreeing with me???

Anyway my DH says I am being a bit of an dick and there must be lots of lovely beauticians that are just doing a day job and not really implicated in the ethical failing of the industry as a whole. So unless you actually invented a new thing to scare people about (which you just so happened to have a reasonably priced solution to) then I should probably give you a break.

I will leave you all in peace with the following thought 'Combat the signs of ageing!' erm why???????????????????????

Sorry perception but there are lots of products that no-one knew they needed until AFTER the major advertising campaign. You would be right except for advertising.

Really leaving now. Have enjoyed the discussion and it has thrown a few issues up for me to think about - so thanks all.

But as mishtake said - people pursued various, possibly dubious fashions (such as using poisonous make up) since before advertising was possible.

I would argue that this is a human characteristic generally (possibly a weakness but still part of human nature).

trice Thank you for that link.
All those women who look like me.
It made me feel better about my weird looking breasts.

yy we do agree Entropy.

And perception, I am afraid markets are created out of thin air, and people are paid enormous amounts to do so.

You may be right Hully, but would you not agree that people have generally always cared about how they looked to a greater or lesser extent.

My absolutely honest answer is that I don't know. The development of all of it would certainly be something interesting to investigate!

I'm not one to harken back to ye olden days, ye olden days sound shit, I like having my own teeth but I do think we are more hung up on beauty these days. When I think about people in my town when I was growing up, no-one dressed fashionably or wore much make-up. Certainly not once they'd had kids or were over the age of about 30.

I don't think there's anything wrong with caring about your appearance. I dye my hair, wear make-up, wear heels, fashionable clothes etc. But if I am not wearing make-up etc, I feel equally as happy. I don't need to put on all that stuff to feel good about myself - it's just a different look.

Honestly though, even nowadays, I think a lot of women are not that bothered by their appearance. I work in adult education and probably at least 50% of my female students don't particularly make an effort - not that they look bad, they don't at all. They just aren't that bothered by how they look.

One I used to teach had had a boob job actually - and it definitely hadn't made her less insecure. She was Argentinian and said everyone down there had implants - if you didn't, you were seen as ugly.

I think 'bags of poison' is a bit much tbh, they aren't poisonous.

I have breast implants, I've had them done twice and my current ones are PIPs. (I've also had a tummy tuck and lipo as that seens relevent) My ability to feed my baby hasn't been changed at all and I am still feeding my 7 month old.

I'm glad I had the surgery, it hasn't made my life better or anything, why just changed how I look to a way I prefer, wasn't anything especially wrong with how I looked before. I will need further surgery at some point, to either remove these PIPs and replace them or remove them altogether, but other than that, I really doubt I'd have anything else done.

How long do implants last?

They've certainly turned out to be bags of poison for some.

Have you readt the thread?

Implants should last for 10-15 years and then you need to get them replaced.

With the PIP ones, they should never have been used in the first place because they had been filled with industrial grade silicon. The problem is that some of the surgeons who work for the companies who do these operations are not even plastic surgeons. My plastic surgeon who did my operation in 2007 never used PIP implants because he said he could tell back then that they were not high enough quality anyway.

The industry needs to be better regulated so that people put their health in the hands of properly trained professionals instead of money grabbers.

The industry needs to be evaporated so that no one has themselves repeatedly sliced open and filled with foreign substances in the name of "looking good."

Sometimes it's about other people's perceptions about what you ought to want. My MIL was rather surprised when she came round after her cancer op to find that her surgeon had taken it upon himself to build her breasts up afterwards "because he thought she would want it". SOme time afterwards she became terribly ill; turned out the bloody things were leaking.

Dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but on the subject of hairy fannies avec flaps, did anyone see the epsode of the Sex education show, where they had a roomful of 14 or 15 year old boys and girls, and a woman who was nekked from the waist down, legs akimbo, with her hairy fanjo broadcast on a big screen for the kids to see?

All the girls were in fits of disgust and embarrassment and could barely look, whereas most of the boys were admiribly reasonable.
One boy just shrugged and said "yep. It's a fanny."

I don't think all boys expect or want Barbie-like sex organs.
In my experience men and boys are usually very happy to be aquainted with tits and fannies in general, and don't tend to mind a bit of pubage, or sag.

It's like bottoms. Women obsess about having big arses, but I only ever get compliments about my humungous tush from men.. They bleddy love it!
So women, don't mutilate yourselves and hate your body parts for the men, because they don't care, honestly.

I have very small breasts (34AA). BF all three children no problem. Easily aroused if a guy pays attention to them. Wish I looked better but if I started with cosmetic surgery I would never end - chin, eyes, nose etc etc etc. I have to rely on my magnetic personality, make-up and good dressing for attractiveness. If any guys are reading this - can any of you tell us how enhanced breasts feel compared with those which are "natural"

I definitely didn't do it for men - no way! In fact, when I had it done I was under the impression that men generally don't like it.

It's all very well to say 'evaporate' the culture of people obsessing about their looks. It will never happen. So in that event the best thing is better regulation.

Having undergone major surgery for cancer, I do wonder what happens if someone who has had surgery because they can, suffers from something seriously disfiguring. It casts a very different light. When I was a teenager, I just wanted a different body as I thought mine was wrong in every way, to look at at least. It can take a while to get used to having a body.

At the risk of getting flamed...why is it acceptable for women who have had a mastectomy to have augmentation/reconstructive surgery but not ok for a woman who has no breasts but not suffered from cancer?

That's a good question Sparecutter.
I may have felt completely different about breast implants if I hadn't lost one.
I'll never know.
I think that if the NH think that an implant or reduction will improve a woman's mental/physical health then it's ok.
But the number of women that do it privately for vanity reasons alone do make me think .
It's a very personal thing for me IYSWIM.

If you have elective surgery on a healthy body, it is not quite the same as having reconstructive surgery to make you look a bit more normal. If you look at the reconstructed breasts, they do not look like the originals. They still often bear the scars and the dents, but they do stop people looking at you, wondering if you're missing something but they are too afraid to ask. People are very afraid of cancer. They think it's catching. Some people

LadyBeagleEyes and silentcatastrophe thanks for your replies. I shall have a good think about what you have said and I will be back later < chinny rub >