To think that the West is seriously fucked up on the bosom front?

[Hullygully]

Bags of poison sewn into our infant feeding parts.

How fucked up is that?

I just flicked over to a programme about Amy cilds and there are kids being taken to her signings (not sure what she is signing) who are shaking from the excitement of meeting her, who are plastered in so much make-up. Why do parents take their kids to this kind of thing?

& yes Yuleing I can't remember when I started shaving my legs, around 16 I guess, after I had been taunted for years about my non-existent chest certainly.

& I never once thought 'I wish I could change them', I knew I was lovely & thought 'fuck the lot of you bollock heads'.

I think it depends on your level of hirsuteness, YuelingFanjo. I had a friend who drew comments wherever she went at school, as she was dark-haired and her unshaved legs were pretty visibly hairy. I can't help but think that if you never drew comment, you must have been lucky, in your youth, to have attended an exceptionally progressive school or to be quite fine-haired.

In fact, my four year old still has her newborn hairy back and has already been teased about it at nursery. So, you know. Don't assume all is rosy because you haven't had any problems.

Emma - why do you think my name is spiderslegs'? There's nothing wrong with a bit of hirsutism - WTF shouldn't we be hirsute? What is so tragically wrong about a bit of hair?

Your four year old is teased about her hairy back? Really?

So you'd advise her to wax it would you?

No, I wouldn't... to be honest, I don't know what I'm going to do about it, other than what I am doing, which is to reassure her that she is wonderful as she is. I've got a feeling that's not going to cut the mustard for many years longer, however.

Do three/four year old's really tease about hairy backs?

If they do where have they got that from? We came for apes so it's not innate, it's a learnt behaviour/distaste.

We have to teach them to unlearn - mine would be totally unperturbed my hair on any of their friends.

by

YANBU I totally agree with OP. Society is fucked and agree some women are convinced they did it for 'them'. (Reconstruction aside)

If they do where have they got that from? We came for apes so it's not innate, it's a learnt behaviour/distaste

Oh come on Spiderslegs we're talking about 3/4yr olds here.

They don't need to 'get it' from anywhere.

If there's 30 kids in a class and one has a hairy back, that's good enough reason for some kids to tease.

spiderslegs - I'm sorry to have to repeat it, but my little girl has indeed already been teased, on more than one occasion, about her body hair, by children the same age as she is. I really hope that your repeated question isn't intended to imply that I'm not telling the truth about this.

As to your wider question - I agree, it's obviously a societal problem. In fact, I agree with most of what you say, I'm just questioning the universality of your experience. And all things being equal, I can say for sure that my little girl would rather not be a 'test case' for the problems of society and attitudes to women.

This isn't something that concerns either of us hugely at the moment, but if it's come up now then I'm fairly sure it'll come up even more later on. And it won't matter how many times I tell her how beautiful she is - and she is! - she is still going to draw fire in PE changing rooms at secondary school, because she is different. I'm surprised you're surprised by that, if you see what I mean.

"I can't help but think that if you never drew comment, you must have been lucky, in your youth, to have attended an exceptionally progressive school or to be quite fine-haired." I am fine haired I guess but seriously, back in the 80s I don't remember any of my friends getting comments about their hairy legs. I remember being called the ugliest girl in school, four eyes, being called medusa and so on... even being taunted for wearing the same socks twice in one week bt not one person commented on my legs being hairy.

Right - two answers here - Worra I really don't think 3/4 year olds tease about physical differences unless there is something coming from somewhere, at that age they have no physical expectations.

Emma I may be accepting of hirsutism now but, as a fifteen year old I was exactly the opposite end of the spectrum, the last girl to start her periods, had NO pubes in the changing room, I got much grief & teasing. But it was ok, I knew at the time it was ok, it hurt, I WANTED PUBES I wanted them badly, but it was ok. I knew people were all different, I knew we'd all even out in the end in whatever way.

I knew that because I felt good about myself & always have.

We're going to have to agree to differ on that then because I often help out in Reception class and I can tell you that some kids certainly do tease others who are 'different' to the rest.

This reminds me a bit about the story (warning may be an urban myth) that when advertising was banned for cigarettes all of the companies actually did better financially, because they suddenly didnt have to pay for advertising, the main point of which is to create an ever escalating stale mate.

I think we women are doing the same thing to ourselves. We are locked in a cycle of competing in ever more extreme ways to be seen as attractive (mostly to men). Phase one, hair and make up, when everyones doing that then you have to get an edge somewhere else...here come boob jobs. Once everyone has a boob job and the perfect bust - whats next? We have alterations to flaps, holes, height, wrist width, ankle shape..????

So what if instead we all got up tomorrow and collectively vowed to give up the hair straightening, the make up and for sure the cosmetic surgery, and we all just go as we are. We would be in the same position we are now but without all the wasted time and the associated risks of surgery.

I would say that I'm in and whose with me, but to be honest if wouldnt make the least difference to me...I dont do make up, I own no hair straighteners, dont shave and wear scruffy jeans to work. I have my amazing DH and my fantastic DD, I dont need to play up to anyones ideas of attractive...least of all those imposed by my own insecurities...

If they do, they do Worra, not going to argue with fact, I would question where they got their idea of 'different' from though.

Entropy, I agree, it's an arms-war & only if we participate, but that's easy to say when you're a (pushing) middle aged woman.

Not so for a fifteen year old girl.

FWIW I've never felt or looked better, pushing 40, wild hair, crazy eyebrows, never even worn a bra, generally have a fag in my gob, most certainly & strongly married & I've never had so many men sniffing around.

Oh yes everything is fecking hideous when you are 15. Which is why I have 14 years and 5 months to change the whole fecking world before my DD gets there...

I think they got it from their eyeballs

I know that sounds like I'm being flippant, but truly I'm not.

Young children tend to be 'visual' in their judgements in my experience and very simple. If one child stands out from everyone else and are totally different in appearance, they often tease them.

We as adults, often over think things because our brains are mature enough to suspect parental influence, other predudiced thinking etc....

My point being, I think, we need to stop this shit, we need to get our daughters to stop with this shit, we need to steer them away from it & we need to show our sons that women can be beautiful, luminescent without this shit.

I guess it's up to us - we can blame the meeja or we can work to neuter it.

Good grief! I just went to do the sterilizing and realised that this must be where the people who claim the Burqa is actually a liberating item of clothing are coming from.

Im assuming that there isnt a lot of make up/hair straightening going on underneath the average Burqa?

Man it really stings a little when you suddenly change your opinion of something....

btw Im not saying that the Burqa is the way forward or the only solution - just that I suddenly got what people meant....

personally I think that assuming all men are incapable of judging women without taking appearance into account is a little patronising. I certainly found one who didnt apparently notice what I looked like :) but then Im pretty sure he has never heard of zoo or nuts.

Entropy

You've gone too far...because they can't see - ahh I see where you are coming from.

BUT that is not a liberating stance.