To ask if you make assumptions by name?

[manicinsomniac]

Okay, so in theory, we are all decent, reasonable people who would never assume that the name a family gives a child has any bearing on them as people.

But, in practice, - do we make those assumptions?

A lot of threads in the baby names topic talk about 'chavvy' names, names for people with low IQs, the idea that you can predict a child's future success based on their name etc. It all sounds very nasty and judgmental but it got me thinking as to whether we can avoid doing it and what it could mean for our children if we do.

I have only been a teacher for 5 years and have only taught in two schools - but they were very very different schools and yes, they did have very different 'popular' names. Both schools have lots of Amys, Lucys, Daniels and Sams but at the first school I taught at I had Dillon, Declan, Damon, Chelsea, Kelsey, Kasey and Jamie-Leigh. In the school I now teach at I have Annabelle, Beatrice, Georgina, Harriet, Sebastian, Frederick, Rupert and Henry.

Do you think we have names that are firmly seen as 'chavvy' or 'posh' as well as the huge mass of names that are obviously in the middle? And, if we do, do we run the risk of a child being perceived as 'a poncy twat' if we call him Rupert or 'a scuzzy chav' if we call them Jamie-Leigh. (By the way, those hideous classist terms are in inverted commas for a reason, I would never actually use them!!)

When you named your child did you consider what other people might think of the name or just go for what you liked?
Do you make assumptions about people based on their name choices?

I think that most people do and I suspect that I do myself if I'm very honest. And I think it's a bad and potentially quite damanging tendency. But I'm fully prepared to be told IABU.

I've heard 2 definitions of 'chav'

1. Council Housed And Violent (really hope that one is false)

and

2. CHeltenham AVerage (ie not from Cheltenham Ladies or Cheltenham College).

Regardless of its origins, it's not a nice way to refer to someone now.

When I taught, I will admit to forming pictures in my head based on names on a register. If the student in question turned out to be different and "nicer" than their name-stereotype suggested, that was good.

The ethnicity one is interesting. I never taught many black students (nature of area/type of college?), but any fears I had about creatively-spelled names tended to disappear if I found the student in question had a West Indian background.

Most of the time, we weren't picking names out of the air and decrying them as "chav"; we were going off our own experiences. A couple of very uncommon names have stuck in my head as being associated with bad students, which is unfortunate. I taught two Jethros who were argumentative, bigoted and unpleasant, and two boys called Blue who were both violent. There is also a girl called Blue in DD's year who is apparently a nightmare.

Oh it clearly has changed.

I just don't quite understand how or why. I mean it is clearly a derogatory term and yet it has spread like wildfire. I hear it on the TV, from Dr's or teachers. It is everywhere. To the point where it seems it is now a legitimate word to describe anyone you feel to be below you.

It is a vile term. I see it as no different to queer/paki/gypo/spaz etc. in as much as it is used to describe (usually innacurately) someone based on their appearance or behaviour in a derogatory manner. yet the words i have listed would never be used in civilised company the way that "chav" is.

Sadly, I'm not sure that is true whingingninja. Some of the most affluent (and therefore, arguably, civilised) people I know are also the worst for using derogatory names about people. I have heard gypo, queer and paki as well as chav being flung casually around a dinner table.

I have an aquaintance (sp?) on fb, who posted a pic of her son once with the caption 'awww, look at my chav baby :)' she seemed proud of it! (the chav bit, I'm not calling her son an 'it') But then again, she is, pretty much, what people seem to mean by 'chav'

I don't particularly like the word either, and try not to use it. (Unless I am trying to wind SIL up, as she claims to hate all 'chavs' yet has some character traits, and does/says things which are associated with being a chav! Mean I know )

I have no idea if any of that makes sense either

I agree manic the richer someone is, the ruder they seem to be. In my experience at least. I think maybe their 'wealth' means they can say what they like. Or maybe the world they grew up in is so different? For example, the wealthy farmers where my brother lives, use the n word, and slag off everyone on benefits. When I qustioned their opinions on benefits, they said that there is plenty of work, and no need for people to claim anything. This is true where they live, but not here!

Maniac I don't really want to get into an argument but I do feel you have put personal information about other people's children on is thread.

Dillon - very sweet, low academic ability, naughty but nice
Declan - ADHD and learning difficulties. disruptive but likeable
Damon - delightful. Quiet, shy, polite. Struggled academically but tried hard.
Chelsea - wonderful. Bright, friendly, polite, kind - teacher's dream
Kelsey - difficult home background with poor behaviour but a nice child
Kasey - another difficult home life. Very sad little girl, others disliked her
Jamie-Leigh -lovely girl. Very poor attendance record but otherwise great
Annabelle - gorgeous. Not that bright but hardworking and multi talented
Beatrice - very bland. Not very interested in anything. Did the mimimum
Georgina - wonderful. mature, caring, bright, thoughtful, good at everything
Harriet - scatty, lazy, cheerful. Naughty but nice
Sebastian - a toad. Rude, arrogant, disruptive Struggled academically.
Frederick - difficult home background. generally ok, could be silly
Rupert - PFB to the extreme. Whiny and a know it all.
Henry - nice child. very bright but not too senstive to others around him.

Do you really, as a teacher, think these are nice ways to describe other people's children on a public forum? It's fine to think, maybe even say it in the staffroom or to your DH but really on here? toad, whinny, ADHD...disruptive but likeable.
Can I ask if you have a teaching qualification or are you Montessoti trained (ie,no Bed/PGCE necessary) because Ofsted would have a field day with some of your descriptions of the children in your care.

I think it is often to do with different worlds rather than wealth (I hope anyway!)

One of my best friends was warning me about how fake tans are really dark at first but do fade and said "don't panic when you get out because you will look like a Paki". She's a white Kenyan and just grew up using casual racist language so that now, even when people pull her up on it, she still doesn't think it's a big deal.

Whingingninja
I see it as no different to queer/paki/gypo/spaz etc

As 'chavs' choose to dress and behave they do what you've said is very offensive to the people on your list.

Manic, you used the term 'chav' in your OP. Now you are decrying its use.

I agree, it's to do with 'worlds' not 'wealth', but those 'worlds' are caused in part, by 'wealth'

Interesting about your Kenyan friend. I have a black Kenyan friend, and she is very anti racist, more so than anyone else I know!

It's interesting tufty because, although I'm happy to say it in an anonymous way here, I actually DON'T think it would be ok to say it in the staff room or to a relative because they WOULD know which child I was talking about.

The only one I think you may have a point about is the ADHD comment. Other than that I have seen endless descriptions of children on here (people's friends' children, children they've met at a party, seen in the street, watched on holiday etc etc) that are just as specific but merely missing a very generic first name.

We obviously think differently on this matter so I will just leave it at this - I am happy to state my feelings about a child anonymously but not to somebody who knows or who could identify the child.

tufty, I also said this in my OP:
(By the way, those hideous classist terms are in inverted commas for a reason, I would never actually use them!!)

Meh, everyone knows what's meant by 'chav', whatever anyone says about its origins or implications.

you exhibit poor judgement,are you really as a teacher so unaware how tactless and daft your thread is

your ht will have you reprimanded if you get outed or parents guess.if this us your humour it's piss poor

are you really a FTC teacher or one of the Montessori lot ( eg not a teacher no recognised registration)

lisaro - sorry but you will have to explain. how is it offensive to say that the use of that word is just as offensive as that list?

As I explained - it's about choice. So comparisons are, at best invalid, at worst could be offensive.

I had no idea ellie was a name ( thought it was always shortened version of eleanor)

how does someone choose to be called a paki? or a queer? or a spaz?

I still don't understand sorry.

The description of a child you are paid to care for and safe guard that worries me the most is:

Kasey - another difficult home life. Very sad little girl, others disliked her

That you feel that this sentence is ok makes me really angry and upset.

To add - Saying it's the same calling someone for something they choose as to call someone for something they are is not comparable. It's far worse to call names when someone has no choice but to be whatever they are or do whatever they do.

or are you in agreement that they don't chose it but that "chavs" do?

Oddly i work with a great number of people that many would define using that word and all of them would vehemently deny being a "chav"

they dress in the fashion of their peers. They are products of theri environemnt. Whilst they do indeed chose what clothes they wear, they did not chose their education or their upbringing.

They do not choose to be defined in such terms.
I can see no reason why anyone would want to be labeled in such a humiliating and belittling way

Exactly - nobody chooses to be in the position to be called those names, whereas, if you take the term 'chav' in it's popular usage, then yes, they do choose to be in the position of being described as such.

I think it just syas quite a lot about what you yourself believe the term to mean.
You clearly do believe that those labeled with the name are below you. that they are worth less than you and other members of society.

I think your opinion is far more offensive than mine

good grief,if a teacher posted those comments about my kids on public forum I'd be filing formal complaint

what are you thinking?did you think you'd get a big laugh and conspiratorial chat with posters