To ask if you make assumptions by name?

[manicinsomniac]

Okay, so in theory, we are all decent, reasonable people who would never assume that the name a family gives a child has any bearing on them as people.

But, in practice, - do we make those assumptions?

A lot of threads in the baby names topic talk about 'chavvy' names, names for people with low IQs, the idea that you can predict a child's future success based on their name etc. It all sounds very nasty and judgmental but it got me thinking as to whether we can avoid doing it and what it could mean for our children if we do.

I have only been a teacher for 5 years and have only taught in two schools - but they were very very different schools and yes, they did have very different 'popular' names. Both schools have lots of Amys, Lucys, Daniels and Sams but at the first school I taught at I had Dillon, Declan, Damon, Chelsea, Kelsey, Kasey and Jamie-Leigh. In the school I now teach at I have Annabelle, Beatrice, Georgina, Harriet, Sebastian, Frederick, Rupert and Henry.

Do you think we have names that are firmly seen as 'chavvy' or 'posh' as well as the huge mass of names that are obviously in the middle? And, if we do, do we run the risk of a child being perceived as 'a poncy twat' if we call him Rupert or 'a scuzzy chav' if we call them Jamie-Leigh. (By the way, those hideous classist terms are in inverted commas for a reason, I would never actually use them!!)

When you named your child did you consider what other people might think of the name or just go for what you liked?
Do you make assumptions about people based on their name choices?

I think that most people do and I suspect that I do myself if I'm very honest. And I think it's a bad and potentially quite damanging tendency. But I'm fully prepared to be told IABU.

Manic - I have no idea! I have taught several children with the names you mentioned, and none have had an SEN. I know your name cannot possibly actually determine your intelligence or lack of.

I think chavvy names describe are more to do with the parents not the poor child!

I would add Jane, Anne, Matthew and Mark as classless names.

Its definitely not a British only thing, interestingly. A while back a couple we knew were thinking of calling their new baby Leon.

Another friend's French husband was totally horrified, and assured us that only 'dockers from Marseilles' were called Leon. I was PMSL as I always thought of it as a bit of a posh name if anything.

Similarly when we named dd - in Spain - we introduced her by her shortened name to friends. Some thought that her full name was Josefa and again were very dubious to say the least and although polite were clearly quite relieved when we told them her full name. Yet again to me Josefa is a very pretty name, we would have considered it but wanted a 'properly English' name for her birth certificate/passport.

Good point Plump!

Everyone makes assumptions based on name, from someone's name you can make a guess at their class/ethnic/religious background.

I would assume Kelsi is working class
I would assume Caoimhe is Irish/has an Irish background
I would assume Ottilie is either very posh or has aspiring upper middle parents
I would assume Fatima is Muslim

Names like Robert, John, Sarah and Elizabeth give almost no clue at all to the background of the person.

This thread makes me want to pick a name from the 'chav' list.

Without actually naming my own, I was thinking more of Martha, Edith, Fred, Albert, etc.. So, no, I don't think the ones you have named are especially middle of the road.

I would say off piste names are things like: Merlin, Gawain, Xanthe, Esme, etc.

They're not middle of the road names though, are they? They're just names that were fashionable for a couple of years earlier in the decade. Like being called Suzanne in the late seventies.

Manic it's patronising because you said 'we' not 'I'. Thus assuming that collectively 'we' don't know enough about them. I'm sure for you, working in a private prep school that might be true.

Putting personal information about other people's children on a publicly accessible thread is disgraceful. If you were my child's teacher I would be outraged.

I would think Lianne was a bit chavvy, to be honest. But, and I am aware that this really biases my opinion, I went to a school where I was one of very few middle class children, and I was made very aware of that fact by my chavvy (okay, not all of them were chavs, but many were) classmates. As a result, the names of the people I went to school with have pretty negative connotations for me.

Why were they chavvy ?

Do you mean working class?

I would think Lianne was more MC than Leanne or Lee-ann.

Ellie might be classless, but posh Ellies are short for Eleanor.

The distinction between chavvy and working class is a whole different argument, but work plays a big part in it.

I think people do make assumptions based on a name. rightly or wrongly.

It is for that reason that i feel a little sad when i am told someone has just named their lovely new child reebok or Gabana etc.

Whilst I am sure the parent thinks it is very cool and different and that all their freinds will think them so very daring and out there, when the child is sending out CV's and competing for jobs with peers named Jacob, Eleanor and Mathew I fear that the employer will have certain leanings towards the latter three.

The same can be said for traditional names with "alternative" spellings.

I could of course be wrong. But I do think it is something that should be considered at least

I think people do make assumptions about someone based on their name. We have children at DS' school with similar names to those on Hippymum89s estate. Their is a definate difference between their Mums and the Mums of Hannah, Bethan, Josh etc.

My DP refused to let me call either of our sons 'Lewis' as the Lewis he was at school with was a dick and therefore he hates the name!
ONe of the deciding factors in what SIL called her DS was that the name is 'middle class' (actually her DS2s name is on OP's chav list, albeit with a different spelling)
All the Connors I have ever known have be SEN (coincidence I know) but I read somewhere that 'Connors' are always difficult. again.

usualsuspects Why do you assume all working class people could possibly deemed 'chavvy'? There is a very wide gap between them. How patronising.

All the people on this thread who are using the word 'chavvy' do you not see that it is not a nice way to define people? Do you even know who you mean when you use that word? Can you define it? It is really, really ignorant.

it is also wrong.

Chavvy is an old east end/cockney slang term meaning young boy.

I have never really understood why it has been taken to mean "poorly mannered youth with undesirable fashion sense"

I have also heard that Chav is a gyspy word (meaning child iirc) and my friend, who works with ss, said that when they use it, it means Council Housing And Violent. The SWs swear that is it's 'real' meaning .
Is it anywonder people don't know what it really means! Whoever tells me a meaning, will swear blind theirs is 'right' and point me to a website that backs it up.

Ineedachristmasnickname - yes Travellers also use the word to describe children. Though it is usually boys.

It certainly doesn't mean "council estate and violent" except in the minds of ignorant arrogant fuckwits

ImperialBlether-you said upthread that in France names have to be chosen off a set list-this was true in the past-names were pretty much chosen from the names of the saints and their variations-My SIL (French) is a Tania by choice of her parents, but her actual given 'official' name is Eve. Now anything goes as long as it isn't predjudicial (sp) to the child. There are some 'chavvy' French names too-Killian in particular makes me cringe.

not, they are not a list of current names, nor were they ever taught together. Not from the same school, not from the same year groups, not from the same classes, not from the same chronological years. Children from a period of 6 years, 4 schools (some only spent a few days in on placement) and over a distance of 300 miles. Not identifying!

tuftyfinch - hardly personal information when the child has not been personally identified. No parent could recognise their own child from what I've posted, let alone anyone else.
And I still don't think 'we' is patronising. How many MNers are honsetly going to have intimate knowledge of the names of more than 2 or 3 countries at most?! Being in a private school doesn't make me less likely to know foreign names than anyone else either - we have around 20 different nationalities in the school.

But can the 'meaning' of words not change over time? For example when my Mum was at school gay meant happy. But when I was at school it meant homosexual. So while chav originally may mean boy, it could now mean hoodie wearing, swearing, gold bling wearing etc etc?

Not saying you are wrong, just thinking aloud as it were