To ask if you make assumptions by name?

[manicinsomniac]

Okay, so in theory, we are all decent, reasonable people who would never assume that the name a family gives a child has any bearing on them as people.

But, in practice, - do we make those assumptions?

A lot of threads in the baby names topic talk about 'chavvy' names, names for people with low IQs, the idea that you can predict a child's future success based on their name etc. It all sounds very nasty and judgmental but it got me thinking as to whether we can avoid doing it and what it could mean for our children if we do.

I have only been a teacher for 5 years and have only taught in two schools - but they were very very different schools and yes, they did have very different 'popular' names. Both schools have lots of Amys, Lucys, Daniels and Sams but at the first school I taught at I had Dillon, Declan, Damon, Chelsea, Kelsey, Kasey and Jamie-Leigh. In the school I now teach at I have Annabelle, Beatrice, Georgina, Harriet, Sebastian, Frederick, Rupert and Henry.

Do you think we have names that are firmly seen as 'chavvy' or 'posh' as well as the huge mass of names that are obviously in the middle? And, if we do, do we run the risk of a child being perceived as 'a poncy twat' if we call him Rupert or 'a scuzzy chav' if we call them Jamie-Leigh. (By the way, those hideous classist terms are in inverted commas for a reason, I would never actually use them!!)

When you named your child did you consider what other people might think of the name or just go for what you liked?
Do you make assumptions about people based on their name choices?

I think that most people do and I suspect that I do myself if I'm very honest. And I think it's a bad and potentially quite damanging tendency. But I'm fully prepared to be told IABU.

Socks, it is another pet name, isn't it?

Without meaning to be offensive, I think you can conclude something about the catchment area for both schools that you have mentioned.

I live on a council estate , I know children called Joseph,
Liam,James ,Daniel ,Charlotte,Jessica ,Katherine

Are they middle of the road enough?

I do not judge at all.
For a few reasons. The horrible threads on Mumsnet it one of them (not this one, the name threads that take the piss).
I have a DC with an Uber 'chav' name. One I didnt give him. Many adoptive parents are in this position and it pisses me off no end when people are sneering about his name. Like it utterly defines him despite him having nothing to do with the person who named him (I mean socially and in the nurturing sense).
Another reason I hate the judgemental stuff is that people often justify their snobbishness with 'concern' about the children. 'the wont get to university with a name like that' or 'people will automatically think they are common/posh if you call them that' What the mean is 'I with think them common' and they fail to see it is their issue not the child's.
Instead of examining their own prejudices they simply blame the parent's and keep on their merry way.

And (can you tell this is a pet subject ) 'posh' names can become 'chav' names within a year or two. Tracey was an upmarket American, old money name that is now seen as a 1980s common name.
Sydney, Chelsea, Harry etc are all names very popular with the working classes. Not long ago they were the preserve of the upper classes.

So its al a bit crap really and just gives people a way of being snobby without coming out and saying 'I cant stand the working classes'
It goes the other way too. My friend is convinced that Tarquin is the epitome of upper middle class ponciness and is a hugely popular name.
But the big difference is the power that different sections of society have. Will a well off, educated man with a posh name really suffer is someone judges it, as much as a working class woman with no GSCES?

I don't think she means your name can directly influence whether you will require an SEN. Rather, if all the children who currently have an SEN had their names listed, some names would definitely be more common on the SEN list than the non-SEN list.

I used to teach. And in my experience the above is VERY true!

usualsuspect, those are all names that are going to be found everywhere. They're not the type of names that get the judgements attached.

By middle of the road I meant used by everyone, not supposedly reserved the middle classes

Thats my DD's actual name. It originates from the name Julianna, the generic spelling of Leanne came about from people being lazy with the spelling (in much the same way they do with Niamh/Neve).

I know as its considered an "odd" spelling people think I'm a knob-but actually I'm the one who spelt it correctly.

Hence the question-what do you think when you see it?

Thank you MrsDevere, that was kind of what I meant about reverse vs traditional snobbery. Whilst the posh/wealthy classes hold most of the power in this country the attitude they have towards others matters because it can influence their decisions and therefore other people's lives potentially. The same can't be said in reverse.

Come on MrsDevere I'll help you down. When I can get off my own. We can have a nice cup.

'Mine have middle of the road names which wouldn't often be found on a council estate - not this generation anyway'

I was replying to this

I disagree with that MrsOzz, SENs, ime, are indiscriminate of social class.

I now teach in quite a posh prep and our SEN list has and does include the likes of
Alexander, Maximillian, Frederick, Matilda etc

I can reluctantly believe that catchment will affect the names on a school list but not that certain names will appear on a list of those with special needs.

I think it is a pet name, and if you wanted to call her it that is fine, but you should have put Julianna on her birth certificate so she can make her own choices about having a non-intimate name in formal situations later in life.

usualsuspect - *'Mine have middle of the road names which wouldn't often be found on a council estate - not this generation anyway'

I was replying to this*

Sorry, I missed that.

I have only taught in very mixed background state schools. And in a truely mixed school, certain names do appear on the SEN lists more.

Of course teaching at a prep school, means all children are from relatively well-off backgrounds. So the comparison element isn't there.

So which names do we think are 'classless'?

Great post from MrsDeVere.
Of course people judge others by their names - mediocre, arrogant people (the ones doing the judging, I mean). And I think they do the judging at their own peril as well, overlooking others who will be seen by smarter people for what and who they are.
I say this as someone who has spent much of my life being told "Oh, you must be [insert assumption about social class/ethnicity/parents' political beliefs/lifestyle choices/various other crap]".
And I've been told my RL name must be 'made up'! (It's not.)

But then there are also the sensible ones who wouldn't dream of being so rude and facile.

So maybe there are advantages to being called something that triggers judgments amongst some people as it actually gives the 'judged' one a filter against outlandish twattishness.

Robert, William, John, Katherine and Elizabeth are classless.

I would say Elizabeth/Eliza, along with its variants of Lizzie, Betsy, Beth, Libby are pretty classless. However, I don't know if the Betsys (and Betsy-Mae's!) are registered as Elizabeths!

Ellie appears pretty equal. Again not sure of full names

Isla, Ava and Evie. Very popular amongst all sorts of families.

Thomas/Tommy I would also say I have met several at both ends of the social spectrum.

Joshua, although if we are being brash, I am meeting fewer truely 'posh' Josh's.

Harry and James sound classily MC to my ears, but are distributed quite equally (in my area anyway).

Hmmm I'll keep thinking

But MrsOzz, if these relatively well off children are on our SEN list then they would be on anybody's (we're not selective, our children who struggle genuinely struggle). So, why are these types of names less likely to appear on your lists? A learning difficulty can happen to any child, regardless of anything.

James and Ellie are classless IMO.

Well said mrsdevere

Yes - sorry, I definitely didn't mean that your name in itself makes you/doesn't make you SEN! It links to my earlier post about socio-economic areas.

I am not saying it's a "big deal" - there is a LOT more to life than school!

There are names popular in Wales, Scotland, Ireland that aren't in England; there are names that are more popular amongst people who perhaps aren't university educated than people who are.

I think James is definitely classless, and Tom/Thomas, and William but not sure about Elizabeth or Ellie.

I think fashionable names (like Ellie, Ava, Evie) are never classless, because like someone said, they tend to start off posh and get less posh as they get more popular.

It's quite hard to come up with classless names though. What about Sian or Sarah?

It's quite hard to come up with classless names though.

But those with true class are always 'classless', huckabees.

I live on a council estate too and my DD (Lily... which camp would you put that in, I chose it before it was so popular!) has friends called Tanisha, Maiya, Paige, and Kaitlyn.

She goes to a tiny village school and is friends with a Hettie, Hannah, Nicole, Mimi and Liberty...

And yes, there is a huge difference between the school and home kids!