To expect my ex to see his son on Christmas day FROM MY POINT OF VIEW

[fabsi]

Ok, so yesterday i posted a thread, perhaps in bitterness, to see just unreasonable my ex and his wife are being. I am a lone parent, my ds is 5 and has a good relationship with my ex, his sm and his dcs. My son stays over every saturday night and adores his time with his dad and ss. Last year, my ex "told" me he wouldn't be coming over on christmas day as the year before his dd was "very" upset when he left and didn't want the same happening again this year. I said no way! He did come over in the end, but only stayed 40 minutes. He has asked me a couple of times what to do about bringing the presents over for ds, as he doesn't want to bring them on christmas day, he should have them to open from santa. Fair enough. But i know what's coming. He split with me after 10 years together, he said he'd never loved me and had found someone else. 4 months after we spilt, i found out i was pregnant and i was 6 months gone (no i didn't know, it was never planned and i never thought i could get pregnant as i have a disability and my periods have always been all over the place) I asked for him back several times, but he was in love with his new woman and i was left alone, thankfully i have a supportive family. I had my son and he came to visit every week, at first i didn't want any contact (ds and sm) because i was obviously incredibly bitter. Then sm got pregnant and had a dd and then a year later got married. I admit, i did make access hard, and didn't allow him to take ds out, so he went to a solicitor and i gave in and said ok. I'm glad i did, as ds loves my ex and his family. Yes, i hate her. For taking my man away, but i know she treats ds as one of her own. But, i have heard, from ex's family memebers she doesn't like ex coming over on xmas day and so i think she is the reason he doesn't really want to come over, to keep her happy. THERE IS NO WAY I WOULD EVER ALLOW MY SON over to his dads on xmas day. I am alone and he is all i have. His dad should make the effort to come over here, as many of you have said, his other children have him ALL DAY!!! Sorry for reverse AIBU, but i really do hate that he or she doesn't want to see ds on xmas day. It made me feel better. So, thank you for all your replies.

Fabsi, you sound like my ex.

When it finally got to court, I was told that I was selfish for wanting to see DD1 every other xmas at mine. Selfish because spending the day with her cousins and aunts was more important than with her dad and other grandparents.

DD1 is 15 now and feels taht she grew up without a father, because of the barriers her mum put up to every request I made.

It isn't cheating if he finished his relationship with the OP before he slept with his (now) DW. We aren't party to that information, and as it would be coming from the OP - it would only be HER point of view. And if you were in a relationship with someone as bitter, and self-serving as the OP - would YOU want to carry on that relationship if you felt that someone else might treat you better? The OP treats her Ex as if he is a second-class parent, as if he doesn't measure up to her. Who's to say that the OP wasn't like that in OTHER areas of their relationship too? He didn't know she was pregnant when he left, and neither did she.

If he finished his relationship with the OP first, then it is NOT cheating. Even if he fell into bed with his (now) DW within 20 minutes.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be HURTFUL that someone who you had spent 10 years with, and loved with all your heart did that - but it isn't cheating.

Finding your husband naked in your bed with someone, like I did, THAT is cheating. Still doesn't mean that I get to dominate all of the special occasions with DS1 though.

Ex-H cheated on ME, he cheated on his marriage vows - he didn't cheat on his SON. He had already left BEFORE he even knew that there would be a child involved. Should he have left the person who has become his DW just because his Ex, who he didn't love any more, had found out she was pregnant 4 months after they split up? He stepped up, and tried to see his son, when he found out - but the OP even made that hard, trying to put conditions on his visits, because she wanted to 'win him back'. She was USING her son to try to gain the affections of her ex partner. If she is willing to be that abusive towards her own CHILD as to USE him as a tool to get her ex to spend time with her (as the OP herself states), then how controlling was she towrds her Ex when they were together.

TechnoViking - I can assure you that in the Family courts now, that just would not happen. It wasn't like that even 6/7 years ago when me and Ex-H went to Court to sort out access etc.

If you've 'found' someone else and are prepared to leave a relationship of a decade for them you are cheating imo - whether emotionally or sexually. Probably both. The dh strung the op along for 10 YEARS apparently having NEVER loved her. He is no saint.
None of this should make any difference to access arrangements if he treats his son well - which by all accounts he does. But I can understand why the OP is angry and doesn't want to make life easy for her ex. She just needs to make sure she isn't making life hard for her son in the process.

HuntyCat, I must have imagined the Judge at the Family Court in Holborn, agreeing with m Ex on that point then. That was in 2003/2004.

Sorry but it did happen. This was after 3 years of my ex refusing to return paperwork or agree to anything at all. All I was asking for was a normal access agreement, i.e. alternate weekends and xmases.

What did I do to deserve such hostility? I left her. As we'd discussed I would for months before. I took the joint debts and mortgage payments and left her the house and car.

Sorry for hijack, OP.

hunty excellent posts, all of them.

No one is saying the op shouldn't feel hurt, but this seems to be all about trying to win someone who doesn't want to be with her back. A tad scary tbh.
hunty you have come across as someone who is incredibly philosophical about the past you have had to deal with, and someone who is strong enough to not let the manipulation you suffered continue to the next generation. If nothing else this thread serves as a great warning of what those who do what the op does can do to a child, none of which they appreciate when they are adults with their own children. It is very short sighted.

On a very very positive note, there are many of you who have drawn yourselves out of the depth of this huge guilt party and have stopped it, I wonder how many men have been able to do this.

haven't read all the thread but just wanted to say you need to put your DS first, your needs are not a priority here. You need to come to terms with your feelings or you will most likely become more bitter and it will affect DS - I know from experience. It is not worth holding onto your grudge as it will just make everyone unhappy.

Good luck!

Hunty
What an example you are to all of us who at times become bitter over EXP.
I admire your strength and hope the OP can see some sense. It is all about the child !

Fabsi that's a fantastically honest post.

I think anyone who had someone walk out on them after 10 years telling them they'd never loved them and then discovered they were pregnant would be angry and bitter. I'm glad that you managed to get through that and you have good contact sorted out between your ex and your DS.

As for Christmas, I'm sorry but if you feel so strongly that your DS should be with you at your house then it's very difficult to work out a reasonable arrangement for your ex to see him. I can imagine that it causes trouble in his new family because you work the visit around your routine (when you have Christmas dinner and people coming round etc) and so dictate their plans. And as you are still angry with her, that probably makes you feel good on some level.

I know you put the blame onto her for your split but she didn't owe you anything. He did. And no-one else made him say he never loved you or kept him from returning when he found out you were pregnant. That was all him. When you make him leave his other children to see his DS you're punishing them as well as their mother. Your DS's siblings. And a woman who, despite everything else, you have said treats your DS as she treats her own children.

How about arranging for your DS to see his father the day on Christmas Eve or boxing day instead? Or even dropping him around on Christmas Day an hour or two before bedtime to sleep over.

Sorry Hunty! I should have previewed that message first ! The score was a typo ! Duh!
Merry Xmas!

People like you give resident parents a bad name OP. I was asingle Mum (now remarried) and DS1 was all I had but still I agreed for him to spend alternate xmas days with his Dad and I from day 1. Yes it was pretyy crappy being alone - in fact the first time he went I told my friends I was with family and told family I was friends and just stayed in with a bottle of wine crying - not my finest hour.

Fast forward and it was absolutey the right thing. My DS has happy memories of Christmas with both parents and both familes and he is well adjusted. I have a new DH and more children so Xmas days even when DS is with his dad are better than they used to be.

Sure, I MISS him but it's not about me. No way my son an come to me when he is older and say I did not put him first rather than me when our marriage broke down. Sadly, I don't think you'll be able to say the same.

You may have been sad and hurt but by your own admission you used your son as a weapon to get back at your ex, basically putting your feelings above his. That is unforgiveable.

TechnoViking - IN NO WAY was I saying that you imagined it. I think you just got a be polite Hunty don't say cuntish idiotic Judge. And in the long run, your child will know that you TRIED. Good for you!

jen127 - I'm not saying that I'm not bitter - of course I am, I seethe internally every time I see them together. But I am a grown-up, and a parent, and I put my feelings to one side when it is about my dc. I just come on HERE and rant about them.

MildlyNarkyPuffin - I wouldn't class one overnight a week on a Saturday to Sunday as 'good contact'. I certainly wouldn't feel that it was 'good contact' should the situation be reversed and I became the NRP.

As starting point for good contact, IMO is every other weekend from Friday afternoon through to Monday morning, one mid-week overnight, half of all school holidays, half the dc's birthday (we do swaps at 1pm), and every other Christmas. That's as a START point.

When it comes to contact, I try to swap it around, and ask myself what the MINIMUM contact is that I would be prepared to accept if I was the NRP. If it wouldn't be good enough for me - then it's not good enough for the child's father either IMO.

OK DS2 & DS3's dad doesn't have that level of contact - but that is for a number of reasons - one is his working pattern, another is the fact that DS3 is only 10mo and is still BF, and cannot drink from a bottle due to a medical problem, another is that Ex-P (different dad to DS1) hasn't got a big enough room to have both dc at once, yet another is that he feels he "Can't cope with a child uunder 3yo on his own"...He DOES have DS2, who is 8yo, every other weekend, he turned down a mid-week overnight as he lives too far away from DS2's school and can't be arsed to get up early on his day off. He can't have him for half of ALL school holidays as he doesn't get that much time off work - but when he books time off work in the school holidays, he has DS2.

I also have him come round to my house for two evenings a week, so that he is able to build a relationship with 10mo DS3. Which is hard for me, as he was the one who decided to fuck off walk out when DS3 was just 4mo. But, again - I put my feelings to one side for the sake of DS2 and DS3.

A lot of the reason my Ex-P doesn't have the same level of contact that my Ex-H does is because he can't due to work and/or doesn't WANT to. It's not that it isn't being offered IYSWIM.

I just can't class one overnight a week as 'good contact', because I would feel like SHIT if I was the NRP and that was all that I was 'allowed'.

If I'd posted for advice and support on a forum and managed to illicit such an overwhelming response, positive or negative, I'd like to think that having stirred such depth of feeling and prompted such heartfelt accounts of personal experience, the least I could do would be to post a reply.

Bad form.

I suggest Huntycat be employed by dear Dave and his government to try and sort out the mess the UK has put itself in regarding custody/maintenance in situations of separated parents. I fear her slant on access arrangements might be in the minority for the resident parent, the current UK system does nothing but encourage bitterness on both sides of a separation.

If she came back and asked for help on how to manage it differently, I am sure she would get sympathetic help. Anyone can see that it is difficult-the point it that it has to be managed for the sake of DS.

Three cheers (and a very unMumsnetty hug) for Hunty.

natation - I have seen several Belgian colleagues going down the shared parenting route and think it is wonderful that this is the default here. Also men leaving early to collect their kids from school etc. It should be the "default" - the starting point, as it were.

But on the other hand I see so many people in abusive relationships on these threads ( though not the case here) that I don't believe we can do this automatically - there is no one size fits all scenario.

That being said, the view is skewed on MN. You don't tend to post when your dh is lovely and does his fair share and you like his mother etc.

"There is no court order, xp has him from 10am Saturday morning until 1pm sunday. But i am sticking to my guns on not letting him got to xp xmas day. Call me selfish, but UNTIL ds asks me if he can, i will not be suggesting it"
I only read the first few pages of this thread as the overwhelming response is YABU but you do not want to listen to the replies. You are setting yourself up for a fall when your child grows up. Children are not stupid and can detect bitterness like yours and if you are not careful he will grow up resenting the guilt your bitterness towards your ex will eventually cause him to feel. You will end up alone. Let him stay over the Saturday night as this is what should happen because it's a saturday! You can then enjoy your Christmas day together and he will be happy because he will see his mum and dad working together with the sole purpose of making him happy. He may only be 5 but I bet he's already starting to be aware of your overwhelming bitterness. You really need to start making a new life for yourself or you are going to end up lonely.

Only one problem with that, natation. That would involve me having to be polite to shiney Dave and Prick Clegg. I might be able to bite my tongue when it involves my dc's wellbeing - but working with them would be a step too far!

Fabsi you need to grow the f* up & stop using your poor DS as some toy that you own & won't share - sure you were hurt by your ex & its understandable that you would feel bitterness towards your ex & his wife

BUT 6 years have passed, isn't it time you stopped being so juvenile, act like a grown up & do whats best for your Son - ie; stop using your DS to control your ex & allow him to see his Dad on Xmas day as it suits your Ex for once - not too much for your ex, DD & his wife to expect once in 5 years

you missed out a LOT of details in your other post, so don't bother thanking me for my reply to that, as it was obviously based on manipulated bullshit to get the response you wanted

as others have already said - kids grow up - become adults & understand the adult world & if you don;t sort yourself out - your DS is going to one day wake up & see you as the bitter & twisted Hag who denied him a proper relationship with his Dad & then you really will be on your own -

Wise up before its too late

Agree with rockinhippy - you DO know as an adult who is there for you and who made your life difficult. I already posted about my dysfunctional family. Though it is probably pointless as OP has run for the hills, nest of vipers and all.

it has taken me AGES to read through all of your responses, so i apologise for the late reply. I work from 11-5 and evenings are busy too, so i'm sorry i haven't had a chance to reply. firstly, thank you to EVERYONE who has taken their time to reply. After reading through your responses, i've decided i'm going to call xp tomorrow and talk about whether he would like to have ds on xmas day and if so, because he's never indicated to me he does want ds at his on xmas day (yes, it may be he is scared to ask, but he should ask anyway, if he really wanted to, imo) and i'm hoping we can come to some sort of decision. Alot of your replies hurt, if i'm being honest, especially saying i am selfish and i need to let go. YES, i do. And i will. But this is a HUGE stepping stone for me, and it has been incredibly hard to raise ds (parents do help a little, but are in ill health and brothers and sisters have their own families) as i have cerebal palsy and work too. It has been very very hard to let go, because xp did most things to help with my disability. He is a good father. He supports and calls ds every day to speak to him. It took me a while to let go and allow ds to be part of his other family, but i did. As will i get over the xmas hurdle too. I thank you again, for your support and will let you know how the conversation goes tomorrow.

Well done for coming back OP, and admitting you were wrong. It must have been very hard to do, particularly with the strength of feeling behind some of the responses you got. I hope your chat with your XP goes well :)