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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be annoyed ith the school - how many times can you penalise a child for poor attendance

270 replies

654321 · 06/12/2011 20:23

There are mixed opinions about taking your kids out of school, and we made a choice to take DS out of school for 5 days in total.....these were treated as unauthorised absence. Now bearing in mind that since reception DS's attendance has always been in the high 90's (around 98%) Im not typically a parent that takes non attendance lightly...and there were genuine non financial reasons for not taking holidays during the appropriate holidays - but I also accept that no one twisted my arm to go on holiday.

DS did not qualify for the xmas treat - day trip to the panto because of his attendance - which he accepted as he knew we had been away on holiday and got to do things whist other kids were in school - however now he has been told in addition to that he cannot attend the end of year christmas disco...

How many things can they disqualify him from - he is being punished for something that was technically my choice. It seems that the message is that anything nice coming up he wont be able to do because of his attendance - it just seems to be labouring the point at the expense of the child...DS is 12YO btw :)

OP posts:
Abitwobblynow · 09/12/2011 08:50

In case anyone hasn't noticed, there is a crisis in British education (except in the independent sector).

"For years, educationalists have been puzzling over the strange phenomenon whereby British schoolchildren do better and better in their exams each year and yet are plummeting in the international league tables.
According to the OECD's Programme for International Student Assessment, our schoolchildren now trail those of Slovenia ... Comparing our schoolchildren's performance in 2009 with their performance in 2000 is problematic because the OECD has now disowned the 2000 UK figures (they were doctored by New Labour apparatchiks), but few would dispute that they're performing worse now than they were in 1997."

Do you want your children to do well in school, with a good relationships with their teachers? Do you want them to learn the valuable life lesson that IT ISN'T ALWAYS ABOUT YOU? Do you want them to learn how to accept the certain disappointments that life will send you, with serenity, to not take them personally, not be discouraged, but to continue to strive?

As to the remarks about sex abuse etc., well don't you think that the entire system of 'rights' and mistrust has swung too much the other way, leaving teachers, most of whom ARE NOT child-hating perverts, unsupported? This poster has brought up an important point, which is what the relationship between parents and teachers should be.

Frankly, it should be the parents supporting the teachers and the school. If you want to go on about 'principles', and 'defending' your child against a 'rule' that you have taken far too personally, then I will say to you again: grow up. I know this goes against the prevailing 'grievances should be supported' culture of this country, but in this you are wrong.

Now: attainment in the independent sector is not sliding. The percentage of private kids at the top Russell Group universities is now higher than in the 60s, and independently educated children have to be discriminated against with imposed quotas. Why is this? Why do these kids have better attainment? Two things: discipline, which is based on the TEACHERS being in charge, sure in the knowledge that they and the parents of their pupils have the same values. Secondly, expectations which are high. A really wierd thing comes out of this: the teachers in private schools really get involved with their pupils and really care about them, in ACTIONS not lip service. The success of independent schools is not about 'privilege'. It is about discipline, thorough teaching and very hard work.

I am a governor in the state system. I am telling you now that state teachers do not care about the kids, put themselves out for their pupils the way the private school teachers do. Oh there is a lot of talk about caring. Stacks of right-on yap yap. But the prevailing action in state schools is indifference and CoverYourA. Extra personal tuition out of their own time and off their own bat, to reward a pupils effort/determination, to get them back on track?? Never. Only at private schools. Never taking a child aside for a talk about their talent and potential, that if they worked hard, chose these harder GCSEs, they could be... It's not worth it, for them! School ends at 3.30, if something happens to you on the way home, not my problem.

And the reason is, why should they? The moment they make an error, a mistake of judgement (because teachers are human), they will get some grievance-filled parent acting on 'principle' because 'you are out to get my child' like the poster, on their backs. If you talk to teachers they will tell you how parents undermine their efforts and authority when they try and show children the difference between good and bad behaviour, right and wrong, actions having consequences. Otherwise known as discipline, not to be confused with child abuse.

You can be horrified about my 'cruelty' and 'judgmentalism', but you are being told a few home truths. Don't undermine your school! Don't give your children confusing signals! Don't do it!

TroublesomeEx · 09/12/2011 09:06

Abitwobblynow I don't know any private ed teachers so can't comment on the attitude of the teachers, however, most of what you say about the state system does ring true and if the support from parents in private sector is that much greater (which overall I imagine it is since every single one of them has a vested interest in their child doing well) then I can see how the behaviour of the parents, over time, drives the behaviour of the parents differently.

There is a lot of arse covering.

Parents should support the schools more.

Re: you quote, always baffles me how standards are being raised so much at primary school yet when they get to secondary school / university all we hear about is how they have ever decreasing literacy and numeracy abilities.

ElaineReese · 09/12/2011 09:22

Abitwobblynow that's horsehit. I was with you on the idea of supporting the schools but the idea that state school teachers don't care is just wrong.

Whatmeworry · 09/12/2011 09:31

Re: you quote, always baffles me how standards are being raised so much at primary school yet when they get to secondary school / university all we hear about is how they have ever decreasing literacy and numeracy abilities.

Two things are happening:

  • Developing countries education systems are getting better and educating more kids. The irony is that so many of the ones in Asia and Africa are based on the old British one!
  • The British system is declining. We know this because the Universities see it. I don't blame the teachers in the main (though there are some crap ones, but its ever been thus), I blame the highly politicised UK education system and its unwillingness to face up to the failure of its ideologies.

Also i do think an (increasing?) minority of parents' feeling that their child's rights/entitlement trumps the rest of a class's need to be educated is making it much harder for schools and teachers.

cory · 09/12/2011 10:24

I am always on these threads pointing out how hard it is for children with chronic disorders when too much stress is laid on attendance awards. Doesn't mean I have to have a vast amount of sympathy with parents who choose to take their children out of school and then moan about them missing out. In fact, they are the ones who make it hard for the rest of us, because we all get tarred with the same brush. Headteachers assume that the absences of children in constant pain and with frequent necessary hospital appointments have something to do with the parents' attitude.

What I would like to see is a tiered system where documented illness/medical treatment is registered with a different code to authorised holidays.

TroublesomeEx · 09/12/2011 10:30

Thank you Whatme. The thing is I am a primary school teacher, but only relatively recently. So in teaching terms, I only know the current system/methods. Some of them mean that lessons are more interesting for some children.

When I look at my son's writing, I can see how Big Write and scaffolding etc have worked. He uses vocabulary and sentence structures that I was not using at his age, and his school has only used the same prescriptive methods as other schools.

So yes, you're right I think this I blame the highly politicised UK education system and its unwillingness to face up to the failure of its ideologies. Probably has more to answer for than the commitment of teachers, the abilities of children and the support of parents.

TroublesomeEx · 09/12/2011 10:31

I agree Cory. Children with chronic illnesses should be supported so that they don't fall behind, but certainly not penalised for being ill. I'm sure the majority of them would rather be in school with their friends than enduring more treatments.

piprobincomesbobbobbobbinalong · 09/12/2011 10:55

I would be very, very tempted to tell the school that if DS is excluded from the disco due to absence issues, then I as his parent should also be excluded from the disco for the same reasons. And let them organise the poxy disco without me. [sulky emoticon].

I wouldn't actually do that, but I would struggle to give my time and energy with a good grace. Not because DS shouldn't have some sort of consequence for the absence, missing the panto seems fair enough, but because I feel strongly that you impose one punishment and then draw a line under the situation and move on.

Abitwobblynow · 09/12/2011 11:03

"I blame the highly politicised UK education system and its unwillingness to face up to the failure of its ideologies. "

YES! Now we are having a real talk.

Abitwobblynow · 09/12/2011 11:10

Elainereese:

Explain to me then, how caring 1. encouraging 'soft' GCSEs is
2. taking GCSEs a year early is.

These do not, in any way WHATSOEVER give any advantage to the (able) child concerned. They (in fact) will stop that able child getting access to the best university they have the potential to go to.

They DO, however, reward the 'caring' teachers you defend, in their League Tables. Like I said, lots of right-on yap yap, ACTIONS are different.

Just a little warning, I know what I am talking about. So to get emotional and horseshitty, is very beautiful, but you need to answer with some facts.

So answer the above please.

TroublesomeEx · 09/12/2011 11:18

A lot of what state schools do is done to appease/satisfy Ofsted and not necessarily what is in the best interest of the child/ren.

ElaineReese · 09/12/2011 11:21

Crikey, wobbly you're nice! Ok so we're talking about 'soft' GCSES and doing them early ONLY, are we? Because when you said state school teachers don't care, what immediately sprang to mind was all the twilight classes my daughter does, the times I've called and been spoken to after the school day is over, the clubs and the trips and the sport and the encouragement and all that stuff. But ok, that doesn't count - I see. I expect they just do that for the league tables, the lefty bastards.

For the record, obviously, I strongly object to your rather hectoring tone and your attempts at vague menace!

  1. Don't know any instances of this happening. If a child wants to do Art and has an aptitude for it, don't see any particular problem with the said child being encouraged to do it, though.
  2. Don't see any problem with doing Maths a year early - why not? leaves year 11 a bit freer, surely? Dd may do Maths next November and then some further Maths thing the following July - surely a win-win, if she's happy and school get a good set of results?
tethersjinglebellend · 09/12/2011 11:33

Abitwobblynow, have you spoken of your views on state school teachers at your governors meetings?

I suggest that you do.

Also, why look at the UK private system and not the highest ranking countries such as China, South Korea or Finland for inspiration? I'm not saying that we should, just asking why you look to the private sector and not state sectors in other countries...

I agree with you about GCSEs taken a year early- a gimmick IMO. 'Soft GCSEs'- well, you'll have to elaborate there.

"They DO, however, reward the 'caring' teachers you defend, in their League Tables. Like I said, lots of right-on yap yap, ACTIONS are different.

Just a little warning, I know what I am talking about. So to get emotional and horseshitty, is very beautiful, but you need to answer with some facts."

Please explain how teachers are rewarded by their school's status in the league tables.

Please don't assume that others on this thread do not know what they are talking about- it really weakens your argument; and I think you have some valid points underneath the anger you are displaying. You are actually displaying more emotion than anyone else on this thread right now (save the OP), so it seems a little churlish to berate others for it as if it were a weakness.

tethersjinglebellend · 09/12/2011 11:37

Latest info on early entry here

tethersjinglebellend · 09/12/2011 11:37

*early GCSE entry

Ipomegranate · 09/12/2011 13:53

Well having experienced the Aussie state education system for 5 years I think the British one is bloody fantastic in comparison. I also think it's improved vastly since I was at school in the 70s/80s. This decline in standards talk is rubbish - the amount of children who used to pass O levels etc was less than 50%, pretty ridiculous to have exams that most children failed, far better to have qualifications that reflect what children are actually learning and that don't write off the majority at age 16.

LoremIpsum · 09/12/2011 16:10

Wobbly, what of the countries you say you're slipping behind who take a much more flexible attitude to attendance? From my perspective, the obsession with attendance statistics in the UK and the time and resources devoted to the issue seem ludicrous. Persistent truancy and poor attendance is tackled as a discrete issue ere, and it is parents who are pursued and punished, not children. Families with a good or even just average attitude to attendance are trusted to make the right decisions on behalf of their children. It's explicitly recognised at DD's school that travel can be an excellent learning experience for a child. Catch up work is organised, hildren often share their experiences on their return and even help lead a related project. Everyone seems to cope.

LoremIpsum · 09/12/2011 16:16

Which State, Ipomegranate? One major failing of the Australian education system is that it doesn't, at this stage, exist. Education is provided by State governments not the Federal government and everything from age at entry to curriculum differs. A national curriculum is coming, and not soon enough.

Ipomegranate · 09/12/2011 16:35

It was Victoria, alas it's likely that we'll be heading back there next year :( Considering private for DS for secondary. I'm not looking forward to parting with my hard earned cash for state fees for a substandard education. Honestly, that and the healthcare system, I don't think people in Britain realize just how well our children are looked after.

kelly2000 · 09/12/2011 16:53

I can understand how they are allowed to do this for holidays, but surely it is illegal to do this for illness related absence, does it not come under discrimination or something? To be honest i would just kick up a fuss about the double punishment, as that is in effect what it is. It seems an odd punishment that is designed to ensure children miss out on all christmas festivities.

A bit,
I have found that parents have more power in a private school than a state school. Parents pay for the private schools, so taking away a pupil if the school annoys them means the school looses money. On the other hand it also means children have to be better behaved as the school can expel them easily, and othe rparents complaints will have mor epower. teachers I know thta have swapped fromt he state to the private sector have all done so becaus ein the state sector it is difficult to expel the nasty kids - the ones who swear and threaten, not the ones who take a few days off for a holiday.

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