Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not think my daughter should be made to use a changing room..

435 replies

hairnets · 04/12/2011 22:34

When getting changed after swimming with her Dad?

He told me today that she received a telling off ("major roasting" were his words) for refusing to use her own changing room after he took her swimming. He felt that it wasn't appropriate for her to get changed out in the open because there were other men about in the room.

She's 5.

I obviously think he's BU and I know exactly why I do but interested in what others think before I bang on about why he's BU - If that makes any sense!!

OP posts:
MillyR · 05/12/2011 12:15

SDTG, I have never taught my children about this idea that you can't look at somebody's body parts without their permission. It is rude to stare, but if somebody is naked, it is not necessarily abuse to look at their body.

I've never heard of schools teaching a no looking rule either, and I've not seen it in a sex education book. I would have thought most people teach about not touching, and don't mention not looking. How would kids get changed for ballet and so on if they were taught such a rule? There aren't changing cubicles in every place where people get changed. And what if you do teach a child such a thing and they then see a naked child at a beach. Do they think they themselves are an abuser for seeing that child naked?

pigletmania · 05/12/2011 12:18

We bring up our children how we see fit, and that includes putting our views and norms onto them, its what we all do as parents, when they are older they will form their own opinions

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 05/12/2011 12:19

You're right, Milly, and I misspoke when I mentioned looking at someone's body without permission - though I don't think it would be unreasonable to object to someone leering at another person, so it may be a grey area. I guess I was saying that it might be hard for a young child to differentiate between it being OK to be nude in front of nude strangers of the opposite sex, but it not being OK for a stranger of the opposite sex to be nude with them and to touch them without their consent. You and I can understand it easily, but it might be harder for a 5 year old.

aubergineinautumn · 05/12/2011 12:31

Would this thread be different if we were talking about and older child/young woman with SEN, who needed help changing?

pigletmania · 05/12/2011 12:32

MillyR I do agree with her dh on this one, and understand that the men changing might feel uncomfortable with his dd changing in the open near them, they have every right to feel that way, as I said some people are uncomfortable with nutity, this is not helped by the anti male sentiment or every man being a paedophile. The best thing would have been for the father to find a cubicle so that both can change together. For the record I had open changing areas, and always head for the cubicles.

DooinMeCleanin · 05/12/2011 12:46

I wouldn't let dd2 change in front of anyone, male or female. Not because they might have untoward thoughts about her, but because she might speak her thoughts outloud. Only yesterday she loudly announced "Her needs to buy a dog to go running with. Your belly used to wobble like that until you started running mummy. You should tell her. MUMMY. MUMMY. MUMMY THAT LADY'S BELLY WOBBLES YOU SHOULD TELL HER ABOUT RUNNING." me: "SSSSHH!" dd2: "Her needs to go on a diet and go running" Blush

Not long ago she loudly stated infront of a group of alpha mums "I know that is a boy dog because he has googlies. They're very big googlies. LOOK! LOOK AT HIS BIG GOOGLIES" Blush

Other than the risk of that happening I am with others on this, they both should have shared a cubicle. It's not fair on others who may feel uncomfortable for whatever reason.

Moominsarescary · 05/12/2011 13:51

dooin that's so funny , not for you though! They do grow out of it, I had one just the same ," why is that man so fat mummy? Why does that lady's hair look like my worzel gummidge picture? Does she live in the straw too? "

Moominsarescary · 05/12/2011 13:56

That sounds bad! Ds1 was 20 months at the time and the man wasn't fat, he was incredibly tall though so think he meant long, the women's hair did look a bit worzel gummidge like though

DooinMeCleanin · 05/12/2011 14:00

It's not as bad as "Her needs to go on a diet" The thing is I am not on, nor was I ever 'on a diet'. So where that bit came from I have no idea Confused. And my belly still wobbles Blush

squeakytoy · 05/12/2011 14:13

Most blokes would probably think (in this day and age of the media reporting perverts on every corner), that he was doing the right thing by protecting his daughter, and probably expected the OP to back him up by telling her daughter that on some occasions when she is with her Dad she might have to get changed in private.

I do get the impression here that no matter what the dad had said, he would be in the wrong.

Booboostoo · 05/12/2011 14:31

I love France. Our public pool has one massive changing room which is also very visible from the reception area. We all just get on with changing our clothes together!

Original poster
hairnets · 05/12/2011 14:32

Gah I'm mega busy and can't catch up with all of this - thanks to everyone again who has contributed. Just one quick point to aubergineinautumn yes i beleive it would be different if we were talking about a young women with SEN.
Firstly, she is a sexual being where as a 5 year old is not.
Secondly the changing rooms is for men and children under 8 of which the woman in question would be neither.
Thirdly, whilst the woman isn't responsible for covering up lest she may be open to abuse or rape, as adult women we are able to decide if we want to do this or not, a woman with SEN may need someone else to make that call for her. A child without SEN doesn't need that as they will have their own natural concept for "modesty" which will develope with or without encouragement.

OP posts:
WorraLiberty · 05/12/2011 14:35

There was a regular poster on her a few weeks back who said she burst into tears because she was cleaning a men's toilet at work, and a few of the men would use the urinal in front of her...some of them entered the loo whilst unzipping their flies.

This was a sexually active grown woman who was upset that a small degree of nudity had been forced upon her. She was advised by so many people that she shouldn't have to put up with that if it made her feel uncomfortable.

By the same token, I don't believe the men using the changing room should be put in the position of having a naked little girl in the same room as them when they have no clothes on either as it may well make them feel uncomfortable.

If the OP's DD and her Dad don't like enclosed spaces, they don't have to lock the door. I'm sure they could manage for a few minutes with the door ajar and the Dad nearest to it.

GlitterySkulls · 05/12/2011 14:35

nooka, i'll take your word for it, my local swimming pool has always had cubicles instead of changing rooms.

they do, however, have separate shower rooms, and when i was small, absolutely no opposite sex children were allowed in the "wrong" room.

i remember clearly my dad having to get a female staff member to take me into the womens showers, as i wasn't allowed in the mens room (which is very, very, weird, cos if they were like the womens, then everyone kept their costumes on, no nakedness whatsoever, which the men must have also done as you had to leave the showers, then go to the lockers, then the cubicles).

i was last there about six years ago, and i noticed they'd relaxed that rule, thankfully.

my point is, why should men (or women) be made to feel uncomfortable in their own changing room, because of one child?

i'd change ds in a cubicle, same as i'd tell dsd to go in a cubicle, even though we're all female in there (mainly as i'd be in a cubicle & i wouldn't want to leave her unattended) . i just don't get the need to undress in front of strangers- i accept others have no issue with it, but it's not for me.

pigletmania · 05/12/2011 14:37

I do see where you are coming from, but your ex does not share your views, he has a right to his own, therefore whilst he is looking after your dd she is in his care so he has to do when he sees fit, and if that is to change with your dd in the privacy of a cubicle so be it!

boobs my worse nightmare no cubicles Shock, I personally hate open changing areas, I prefer some privacy to get changed in thanks.

pigletmania · 05/12/2011 14:40

God I don't want to be drying my fanjo creases in public thanks, ok if you feel comfortable doing it but I don't

Original poster
hairnets · 05/12/2011 14:43

Also, for those intent on beleiving that I can see no good in my DD's dad I refer you back to my original posts where I clearly said he is a good dad in many ways but he is also a misogynist. I agree with a lot that he does. He is strict on bedtimes, he feeds her well, he reads with her and he is generous with his time and money. But he is also constantly passing small messages to her about women being sex objects and that men all have minds like sewer rats and that is how it is. Therefore she, and all females, need to behave in a certain way to avoid giving these men wank fodder at best or a justified reason to rape at worst.

He does beleive that "sometimes women ask for it" and also that you are a prick tease if you go for dinner with a man when you don't fancy him and aren't planning to sleep with him (said about one of my friends who dated his friend) He also thinks date rape isn't real rape and was utterly shocked that rape in marriage was illegal - he didn't know this before I told him.

piglet he also has Italian blood and the point on being prudish doesn't wash with me. In my expereince Italians are fairly "prudish" about natural nudity, particularly when it comes to possession of females and not wanting others to see "their woman" naked, but soft porn etc is fine. (big generalisation but you made the generalisation and I am countering it with another)

As well as the "lezzer march" comment, when I asked my ex to not let DD see his lads mags he said asked me what my problem was and hadn't she ever seen me naked!? Er, yes. But generally I'm not dressed as a school girl with my legs akimbo and a strategically placed ruler. Some concepts are just lost on a lot of people.

OP posts:
dancingmustard · 05/12/2011 14:47

If he's saying stuff like that you need to stop him saying it.
It's disgusting.
Does he say these things in front of you?

Original poster
hairnets · 05/12/2011 14:49

"By the same token, I don't believe the men using the changing room should be put in the position of having a naked little girl in the same room as them when they have no clothes on either as it may well make them feel uncomfortable" She needs to limit her behaviour (which is not wrong or dirty or illegal or intentionally upsetting anyone) so that they may feel comfortable... I think we're doing most men a diservice if we beleive that they will be upset at a glimpse of a naked 5 year old.

I wonder what her dad would have done if she was a little boy..?

OP posts:
Moominsarescary · 05/12/2011 14:49

Had to laugh at Drying fanjo creases, I agree and I don't want my over hang on display either. I'm abit uncomfortable with it since my csection

Original poster
hairnets · 05/12/2011 14:51

He does mustard. He is from a long line of laddy men who are very "traditional" in their views of women.

OP posts:
pigletmania · 05/12/2011 14:52

Op my dh is not like that, even with himself he is quite prudish and was Shock when I accidently barged in on him in the loo. I am quite prudish too, as my parents were older when they had me and in those days you did not show flesh. My dad was Shock when i accidently saw him getting dressed when I was a child. My mum (from Cyprus) is the same, must be a Mediterranean thing, though my dad is White British born in the UK. I disagree with the messages your Ex is sending your dd though, they are wrong and catagorising all men as sex hungry beasts, when that is not the case.

pigletmania · 05/12/2011 14:55

Its just my dh and my parents were very private people, and nudity is to be kept private. A lot of people are like that and they are entitiled to have their feelings. I get changed with dd after swimming in a big cubicle as I feel more comfortable that way.

pigletmania · 05/12/2011 14:55

moomin I like them to be dry properly or I get thrush Xmas Grin

dancingmustard · 05/12/2011 14:58

He's making an assumption that it's traditional to see a woman/child as inferior
I've got to be honest and say I wouldn't have allowed my child to be put through that mentality.