To not want to get up earlier, than on weekdays, on a Sunday to take my children to church. Particularily on Christmas day?

[twinklingfairy]

My thread titles are always rubbish. Half way down the thread I think, god I wish I hadn't called it that it is so misleading!

Anyway.
2 children 5yr and 3yr old.
We have to be up and out, like most other people, for school.
So 5 days out of 7 we rush around getting there on time (just).
Mine are like me. They Love their sleep!
I often have to wake them to get them going.
We normally take the car so we get there by the skin of our teeth.

I was brought up catholic and the nearest church is in the next town, 10min car journey.
So, to get there would mean getting up even earlier on a Sunday.

but, Sunday school is straight after and I don't feel I can just drop them there and not bother with the whole church thing.
Unless I take them in at 630 for an hour long service, thus making them late to bed by the time we are done. Only to hustle them out the door for 10am Sunday School.

AIBU to tell my parents, no, sorry it is just not that important to me. I am a lapsed catholic. Gave it up the minute I left home.
My dad told me tonight that we had to 'talk' about it.
I asked was that one of those 'talks' where I don't get to 'talk' he said , No.
He seemed pleasant enough about it, but I have a foreboding feeling, dun dun duuuun.

It has come up because I have been very brave and told them that we are not coming to them for christmas day. That we will be spending it at home so that the children have a relaxed day.
My mum tried to guilt me into coming in (well, it worked last year) but I withstood the onslaught and braved my way through all 3 attempts (your sister will be very disappointed. Your father will miss you. I would like to see the children on Christmas day too)
But I have been tripped by the final hurdle.
Will you be bringing them in to Mass?

Doof, wallop < I have fallen>

My line was
If my children don't get up until 8 am on a normal day, and I doubt they will on christmas day (though, I may be wrong of course) then are you suggesting that I say, Yes, Your Santa sacks are in the Living room but you can't look at them cos you have to get dressed as quickly as you can, we have to go to church!

Or, yes yes dear that is lovely. Isn't Santa nice! Now eat some food and leave it all alone, we have to go, Now!

It doesn't seem fair to me?

Their line
It is Christmas day, Twinkling.
Christs day.
It is not about the presents?

AIBU
They have a point it is Christs day afterall
Or am I being stupidly weak

This is very simple. You can see how being brought up in the catholic faith has/is actually having a damaging affect on your life so don't do it to your children. Stand up for yourself. If you don't want to do it, then just don't. Say to your parents 'you brought me up to be catholic but actually I don't want to bring my children up this way so this and this and this what I am going to do'. What is most important your children's lives or keeping your parents happy?

TBH when mine were 3 and 5, they were always up by 5.30am on Christmas morning so getting to church for 9.30 was never much of an issue. As they got bigger we let me stay up for the treat of midnight mass and going to bed at 1am ish meant they slept until about 9.30

My 2 go to bed just before 8 and normally don't wake until just before 8.
Sunday 9am starts are therefore going to be difficult.
Christmas morning may be different but I am doubting it, they are really dead sleepers.

It sounds to me that you'd like to belong to a faith community, but on your own terms. So checking out the other more local churches seems a very good idea. Then you can decide if you'd like to practice a faith in your own right (well or your family too), or if it's something you do because you feel you should in order to avoid upsetting your parents. Too much Catholic guilt there perhaps :)

I go to Christmas Eve family service, with one ds and his gf and her family. It is really great, they have a musical plat with the youth group, and even bring in a camel with the Wise Men. I never go Christmas Day. It is a United Church.

Nooka, that is actually a concern. DH thinks I am only looking into it/planning anything because of parental pressure.
I don't think that is my only motive but, where they are concerned I struggle to know my own mind

It is only in the past year that I am finally learning to be my own woman.
note; I am one of those, though I feel they don't believe it or forget it a lot.

I've only skipped through the thread, sorry, but i wanted to answer the OP.

I go to church every week, and I wouldn't go to an earlier service on christmas day than I would normally get up, either.
Regardless of whether it's Christmass or any other religious day (except maybe Ascension, because you've got to do it before people go to work)

Just because it's christmas doesn't mean you have to give it any higher precedence than any other day you would go to church (cos that's what non-church-goers do - they do Christmas and Easter and don't bother with the rest. church-goers have the right to do the other way round, quite frankly)

That's it nickel, I would be one of the ones only attending on Christmas day because I never attend any other day.
I used to think they were awful fakes, when I was a regular attender.

Remember that when you lived in your parents house you lived by their rules.

Now you live in your house....

I tell you sometimes I have asked DH if we could consider moving, to put some distance between us.
He gets cross with me because I fall for it every time.
I think I am making my own decisions but when I step back when DH pulls me up and makes me . look at what is really happening--, I realise that I am really just trying to please them.

On occasion this is actually beneficial to me. DH can, at times being a stubborn mule and we could easily do very little. My parents suggestions are sometimes good ones but he takes them all as interference and their attempts to control his good wife.
Quite often I am between a rock and hard place.

Anyway. Yes I live in my house now, it is my rules and I need them to know that. But everytime I do stand up, they just assume that it is DH influence (DM actually once said that to me in accusatory tones). I can't possibly have a mind of my own, well, only so long as it is singing the same tune as them. Or they will do that disappointed thing and I feel so awful
I just want an easy life.
But, sometimes it has to stop.
Last year we were only supposed to go to theirs for breakfast. We were there till 4 I could just never find a time that I was comfortable to say, right we are off. Eventually DH got cross with me, and I with him, before I could see what I was doing and left soon after.
This year I was so proud, I was so strong to say, nope we are not coming in at all. We can have Christmas take 2 with you on Boxing Day.
now....sigh

write them a letter.

ah, i see.
oops, sorry

basically, they can't make your decision for you. tell them that you're having a family morning in, and if you want to go to church, you'll go later as a family.

oh yeeks, so they could quote me and read my words back to me??
Mind you, once my mum has the bit between her teeth, you can't really get a word in.
I am just working on my independence slowly but surely, quietly pulling myself from their clutches.
I know that if I were to say anything they would scoff at the mere suggestion. They won't see it the way it feels for me at times.

Dh is a lapsed catholic and I'm a cultural CoE. Dh's mum goes to church every week (although much less frequently since all the priest child abuse stuff broke and the church's disgusting handling of the perpetrators), his aunt was a nun, great uncles who were priests etc. But he's really not that bothered by it - apart from the catholic guilt that it's left him (and most if not all of our catholic friends) with. I never went to church as a child although my gran went, it was never a part of my cultural experience until I went away to school and then had to go there (and along with most people there tried to get out of it).

We did get married at the local CoE church where there was a mad but lovely rector and we did go along occasionally, also got ds1 christened there. But now we've moved and haven't found a nice church locally so haven't bothered going at all. And we haven't even looked at the local catholic churches.

I refused point blank to bring up the dc as catholic and dh had no objections - don't see any point in saddling them with catholic guilt. No idea what mil thinks of it - never asked but think the ex-nun aunt would be fairly horrified if she knew.

However in your case I'd tell your parents if they ask you about it to say that you are Christian rather than catholic because you don't agree with having pope in luxury/way they handled child abuse/etc and that you find it a family unfriendly place not to mention a pain to get to currently. Whereas you find the other local ones fit in better with your life and beliefs.

When they say about Xmas day service just do the toddler thing and keep repeating that you did it their way last year and that you'd already agreed you would see them at tea time / boxing day / whatever you want it to be. Don't get swayed by their arguments, point out that last time you came for breakfast and left at 4 pm and that did jot work so this time you are doing it differently and sorting out your own Xmas religious fix at a time and place that is convenient and enjoyable.

If they continue to push then just say that you thought they were supposed to be Christian and they aren't acting in a very Christian like manner.

Are yor PIL around to do xmas with sometimes? So you could legitimately argue them down to lots fewer xmases spent with them?

Good luck. Just practise everything on your head before you have 'the conversation' over and over, all the different ways it could go so you don't panic and give in to your parents. And keep saying you are trying it this year as you think it is best for you all as a family and that you have invited them over for tea, you're growing up and want to start new family traditions for your family now too.

Finally (sorry so many questions) how do your parents treat your atheist brother - do they try to twist him back to religion or do they respect him and let him get on with it?

Why, if you are a mother yourself are you allowing your father to treat you like a little girl. If you want to go to church, go, if you don't don't. End of. YOur parents will be upset, but they will get over it.

On another note, do any of the local churches have an early eveing Xmas Mass on Xmas Eve that you could go should you want to. And if they have done that, forget Sunday School. I used to take our two to a 6pm Xmas Eve Mass and then Xmas Day was free for pressies etc.

YANBU. part of me would love for me to take the kids on Christmas Morning to the church, for the 10am service. But I have such limited time alone with them (we go to my Mums at midday, they go to their dads at 6pm) I want to spend the morning with them opening presents, playing with toys, eating a leisurely breakfast.

So instead, this year (they are now 5 and 3) I am taking them to church on Christmas Eve - its the Christingle and Carols there at 6.30pm Christmas Eve. Far more enjoyable all round.

BUT, I am the one who goes to church on a Sunday so thats why I am taking the kids. If I werent religious myself I wouldnt I dont think.

YANBU. You can talk about Jesus and the whole Christmas thing at home if you want to, you dont need to do mass to do it.

I wonder what percentage of Christmas and Easter church goers are believers, and what proportion are grumpy family members like me who feel obliged to sit through it not for religious reasons, but to make another human happy.

Why do religious people feel happy by dragging non-religious people to their church? It isn't like we will be saved because we sat through several hours of tedium and trying to control unruly children not used to that situation.

I got told that I was 'abusing that poor child' when I brought my toddler into the church in his Easter bunny costume because we were dragged there unexpectedly instead of the promised easter egg hunt my MIL told us we were doing. I was shocked that an old man could be so rude. All the other babies there were dressed in frills and lace and bonnets and frippery, and looked far less pleased to be dressed that way than my fat, happy bunny-boy.

Rant over, sorry.

Fsm - "several hours of tedium" - you are at the wrong church if it lasts over an hour! Especially at Christmas, the service is usually shorter than normal.

Look, it's perfectly all right to regard church as a total waste of fucking time. It's fine to live without belief in gods - religion is in general a source of far more harm than good, so bringing up your children free of its bullshit is a good thing to do.

zipzap I am not sure what way they handled the child abuse thing? Was it a while ago? I vaguely remember it being swept under the carpet?

Our RC priest talks a good talk about children being welcome but then gets incredibly distracted if they make a sound when he is talking. Though I guess that is just good manners, but it is pressure from the pulpit coupled with pressure from my parents sat next to me.
Though, again, if I am to be fair to my parents, they accept that DS(3yrs) is going to be a bit playful etc and as long as I can keep his 'playfulness' whispered they just smile.

If I were to use the line of it not being a convenient time, that is all they would hear.
They are already convinced that DH (particularily DH, but then, as I have said, he gets the blame generally) and I are lazy. So to say it is not convenient would just be deemed as lazyness.

Trying to get away from it all. PIL are 200+ miles away. We invited them up this year, partly as a reason to stay home, but they have plans.
besides, I can hear my parents now 'They could always come with you. Or they could stay home and prepare breakfast/lunch for you all'
Went to PIL for christmas a couple of years ago, but MIL is TV obsessed and wanted it on whilst the children were opening their santa sacks.
'I cannot stand this silence!'

As for my brother. My parents give up. But he has faced many battles with them so they now pick and choose which one is worth it. The church one seems not to be.
I don't really want to go through all that and be thought of the way he isI know it makes my DB sad and he probably doesn't know the half of what is expressed when they are angry with him.
I know I am weaker and bend to their will very easily I think that is why they feel they can influence me. I am not lost yet, IYSWIM
I feel that they should appreciate the fact that I am that way, and they do, but sometimes they cannot seem to help themselves but to take advantage of my easy going nature. I am not even sure they realise that they are doing it.

Anotherplace The RC church has a 630 Christmas eve mass, I think. I am pretty sure they have a midnight one, but that is out of the question.
But TBH I am not sure I want to go to it at all. It would feel, and I know DH would feel, that I had given in to the pressure again!
And, as it would not even have been considered had my parents not brought it up, he would probably be right. For that reason, I don't think I could go without feeling a fool and a fraud.

FSM You are right. There are so many who get dragged along and suffer in silence. But it is for the family or keeping the family together^ and I guess there is good in that, but it is a little sad.
Your poor DS, to have been told one thing was happeneing only for it to be a ruse? Not fair
Did he get his easter egg hunt afterward?

Fsm - my first reaction when reading your post was that the abuse was because he was in church rather than doing the egg hunt, rather than because he was in a bunny costume :o

And I would have been furious with mil for the deception of saying egg hunt and ending up in church. Was there an egg hunt within the service? I've been to one where they've hidden lots of little eggs all over the church for the kids to find. And before realising and sitting there half asleep thinking 'there's something not quite right...' and finally realising it was because they'd tucked a bright red foiled shiny egg into each eyeball of a skull in part of a statue so it looked like it was possessed especially when the sun caught them and made them shine from within the statue iyswim! It was a relief to discover that the church hadn't been demonically possessed it was just the siren lure of chocolate instead :o

Back to your mil sorry for meander. But I would have been furious with her and either refused to go or embarrassed her when we got there if I was feeling suitably brave. Dont believe anybody should be forced into going to church. Just so wrong.

Just back from a service at the free C of S.
It was really interesting.
Totally different from RC. No prayers?? Well, other than the ones the priest (is he a priest) made up.
I kinda liked it, but they did want to take the children away before the service even began. I feel that defeats the purpose somewhat. they need to be involved. But, as I was not really involved, other than listening to a very interesting lecture about the psalm they had read, I am not sure how the children could be.
Still, I liked it for all that. I liked their thinking and their relaxed way.
Will try C of S next week.
I hate that I feel like I am shopping for my religion but prefer to think on it as simply trying to find my place.
I was perfectly honest with them so have no qualms about not returning next week because, who knows It could be that, when I compare, I find it is the right fit.

I am sure that all sounds just awful. But how do you know what is right for you unless you try a few different ways first?

most churches take the kids away for sunday school - it's this worry that they'll be bored.
(its a good thing really)

glad you enjoyed it - makes the unwelcoming churches you've been to fade away.

and there's nothing wrong with shopping for your religion - the reason there are so many different types is so that as many people as possible can worship how they like to do it.

'Shopping' for a church that suits you and your family is absolutely legitimate. You need to find a place that inspires and comforts you and where you feel you have a place and can use your gifts. There is lots of movement between denominations. I attend a Baptist church but was bought up C of E. Dh was bought up in an evangelical brethren type church. Our good friend at church was bought up methodist.