To not want to get up earlier, than on weekdays, on a Sunday to take my children to church. Particularily on Christmas day?

[twinklingfairy]

My thread titles are always rubbish. Half way down the thread I think, god I wish I hadn't called it that it is so misleading!

Anyway.
2 children 5yr and 3yr old.
We have to be up and out, like most other people, for school.
So 5 days out of 7 we rush around getting there on time (just).
Mine are like me. They Love their sleep!
I often have to wake them to get them going.
We normally take the car so we get there by the skin of our teeth.

I was brought up catholic and the nearest church is in the next town, 10min car journey.
So, to get there would mean getting up even earlier on a Sunday.

but, Sunday school is straight after and I don't feel I can just drop them there and not bother with the whole church thing.
Unless I take them in at 630 for an hour long service, thus making them late to bed by the time we are done. Only to hustle them out the door for 10am Sunday School.

AIBU to tell my parents, no, sorry it is just not that important to me. I am a lapsed catholic. Gave it up the minute I left home.
My dad told me tonight that we had to 'talk' about it.
I asked was that one of those 'talks' where I don't get to 'talk' he said , No.
He seemed pleasant enough about it, but I have a foreboding feeling, dun dun duuuun.

It has come up because I have been very brave and told them that we are not coming to them for christmas day. That we will be spending it at home so that the children have a relaxed day.
My mum tried to guilt me into coming in (well, it worked last year) but I withstood the onslaught and braved my way through all 3 attempts (your sister will be very disappointed. Your father will miss you. I would like to see the children on Christmas day too)
But I have been tripped by the final hurdle.
Will you be bringing them in to Mass?

Doof, wallop < I have fallen>

My line was
If my children don't get up until 8 am on a normal day, and I doubt they will on christmas day (though, I may be wrong of course) then are you suggesting that I say, Yes, Your Santa sacks are in the Living room but you can't look at them cos you have to get dressed as quickly as you can, we have to go to church!

Or, yes yes dear that is lovely. Isn't Santa nice! Now eat some food and leave it all alone, we have to go, Now!

It doesn't seem fair to me?

Their line
It is Christmas day, Twinkling.
Christs day.
It is not about the presents?

AIBU
They have a point it is Christs day afterall
Or am I being stupidly weak

This is not about going to Mass, it's about your parents respecting your choices and treating you like an adult. We are Catholics, and I do make the younger dc come to Mass with me, because it's part of who we are. My 16yo at the moment is not going to Mass, either with us or alone, and I respect her right to make that choice.

We haven't discussed whether she will come with us at Christmas (though I suspect she will) - if we did need to have that discussion I would say that I'd hope she'd join us because it's a family thing that is part of our Christmas tradition. But if she really felt strongly that she didn't want to, then I would respect that, though I'd be sad about it. It might be worth pointing out that loads of churches do a children's Christmas eve vigil mass sometimes around 6pm, which is FAB as it saves having to get up and out on Christmas morning (and is nicely geared to kids anyway). So that might be worth investigating if you want to do that.

Your parents guilt-tripping you about your church attendance is not okay, and you need to nip it in the bud, I think. You are an adult, and you can bring your dc up as you see fit. Yes, it is a bit sad if your children grow up reject something that is a very important part of your life and you hoped would be meaningful to them too, but it's their life and they need to discover for themselves what is important to them. I'd much rather my adult dc felt free to make their own decisions, than that they felt they had to lie and go against their own beliefs in order to placate me. That's controlling and a bit creepy imo.

wow, so you can't be a catholic if you don't go every week?
Not sure the priest in our church agrees with that logic.

My CofE DH was dragged to church on christmas morning just as he started playing with his presents, he hated it!
Generally, I think he wasn't bad about going to church and still quietly believes in God.
If he wasn't married to a total non believer. I think he'd go to church sometimes. As it is it's mostly special events because the DDs sing in church through school and DD1s singing teacher.
I think you have to find the balance that works for your family.
DH and I both compromise, we knew from the day we got together we'd have to.
I'm sorry, but your parents need to learn that lesson too!

awful pagan rituals of making one chosen victim pay for the sins of many.

What, like Jesus did?

"The festival began when Roman authorities chose ?an enemy of the Roman people? to represent the ?Lord of Misrule.? Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival?s conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman."^

This is the quote from the site I obviously badly misquoted last night. Sorry about that. It was late and I was struggling to express myself.

twinklingfairy Yes the catholic church requires you to go to mass on every holy day of obligation, you are obliged to participate as part of your faith. Obviously you don't do that, so don't feel guilty about making christmas anything other than what you want. The church does move the days of obligation around (most recently in 2006) here and they differ in different countries so I'm not sure how it really works does the catholic God look at Argentinian catholics different from English ones?

We live within 5 minutes of the infants, and 10/15 of the juniors but it starts at 8:40. Seniors starts at 8:30 and they walk (but different routes hence the time thing).
I'd investigate the Messy Church, and certainly look for a Crib service or Christingle, lots of Churches (and even our Cathedral) have these on Christmas Eve, I have found it a nice break from shopping and getting into Christmas proper.
However how will your parents react to you going to a protestant Church instead?
Can you pop over to see them for tea or something? I can imagine they'd like to see the kids at Christmas. Or maybe you can suggest a special Boxing Day visit?

We have been to the Messy Church a few times since it was started by a friend. It is really good but only monthly.
There is an afterschool club in the village that quite a few of DDs friends attend, I will pop her along to that as soon as the reverend has recovered from breaking his vertebrae and arm in a motorbike accident, I like the sound of him in that he does not sound stuffy. So probably in the new year now.

The catholic virgil service is sat nights 630pm. I should imagine that that will be the case for christmas eve too.

We will also be attending the carol service in the next village on the 18th (I think I said earlier the 13th but confirmed today that it is the 18th)
I feel they will be getting plenty of opportunities to understand that is is about celebrating jesus birthday. Though, TBH, they are 3 and 5, I am not sure they are taking in much or care a lot.
Why is that so important, sorry not meaning to disrespect it all at all. But what would have happened if he did not pay for our sins? We wouldn't get to go to heaven and would all go to hell?

What is the difference between the Church of Scotland and the Free Church of Scotland?
We have both in our village. The free church has the afterschool club, the other has sunday school on at the same time as the service.

Also what is the difference between protestant and catholic (you see how little I understand. And this is why I am struggling to commit)
When I was growing up I was told the difference was that catholics believed in Mary being a virgin but the protestants didn't.
I have no idea if there is any fact in that or not.

I would hope that my parents would be happy that I was giving them an education in faith, what difference does it make from whom they learn?
That is my way, live and let live. I will not Ever pick 'sides'. So protestant, catholic, does it really matter? It's the same God, right?

oh, I meant to say, mummytime, that is exactly what I have suggested and thought my parents were happy with but they threw the church question at me and now I am all over the place.

"Also what is the difference between protestant and catholic (you see how little I understand. And this is why I am struggling to commit)
When I was growing up I was told the difference was that catholics believed in Mary being a virgin but the protestants didn't.
I have no idea if there is any fact in that or not."

Aargh, no! Protestants believe Mary was a virgin. Well, some of them anyway. The key thing about protestants is they don't believe in the authority of the Pope (obviously), they don't believe you need priests to act as intermediaries between you and God, they don't believe in praying to saints to intercede and they don't believe in transubstantiation. I'm sure someone will be along soon to tell me I've missed the important stuff.

Church of Scotland is like the Church of England, I think. Free Church of Scotland is a breakaway group of nutters. (Again, I'm sure someone will correct me.)

It seems that the Church of Scotland also do communion, I didn't know that.
lol at the free church being breakaway nutters.
It seems like a much more relaxed enviroment.

Would it matter terribly if my children and I have been baptised catholic, if we were to go to C of S would we be able to take their communion? (well, would I, for now)

Thank you Hackmum you see what children learn. Can't see why it is so important to my parents.

Oh you are in Scotland! The Free Church of Scotland broke away from the Church of Scotland at one point (and then another group broke away from them, and so on).
The Protestant Churches broke away from the Catholic church following Martin Luther and others, who came to believe that a lot that was happening in the Catholic Church in the middle ages was against the will of God. Google it if you want, the basic Martin Luther story which is quite fun (he got struck by lightening twice). The Scottish Church more strictly follows after this, than the Church of England (or Episcopalian up there) which has Henry VIII of England wrapped up in it too.
The bit about Mary is because; Catholic's may believe that Mary was a Virgin until she died; protestants only tend to believe she was a Virgin until she gave birth to Jesus. There are a few other differences, so I found I odd to sing a Carol to "Queen of Heaven" at my local C of E Cathedral last week.
From what I can see the Church of Scotland is open to anyone taking communion, but they do tend to do it less often than some other churches.

some mixing up of Catholic and Christian here. There are rules to religion, and some of them are so ingrained to the religion that if you break them, you aren't really part of that religion, no matter what label you give yourself.

Think of it this way, I can call myself a mountineer. I like mountains, I believe in climbing them, I've read a few books on what mountaineering is all about. I've put it down as hobby on forms and I even have the right boots. If, however, I don't actually climb mountains, I ain't a mountaineer.

Thats Catholicism and going to churh, that is.

DH and I are practising catholics with older DCs and while they are happy to come to church on Christmas day I'm sure that DD1 certainly doesn't go to Mass when she isn't at home. I wouldn't dream of having chats with her about it because she's 20 and able to make up her own mind.

Once you've made the decision to go to Church the time doesn't matter you just plan round it - we do generally go to 9am Mass on Christmas day and it means we get up have a slice of toast and open some presents and then set off in several cars and whoever gets parked first bags a bench. There is a children's evening Mass on Christmas eve but it is so crowded that I'd rather go in the morning.

This year its a bit easier as Christmas is on a Sunday anyway so that means you aren't even making an extra visit.

I'm a lapsed catholic too. I wish we did go to Church but Dh is anti and the kids moan about it being BORING. So we don't go and I do feel weak and guilty. Whenever we do go I sit and cry with emotion all through Mass expecially The Creed, odd eh? Except I hear it's all worded differently recently so I guess it wont be so emotive for me.

However someone here suggested going to a C of E service if it was more convenient. Bloody Hell , if I did that my Mum would horrified and feel I had betrayed the church or something. I am sure she would rather we didn;t go at all.

I thought the difference between C of E and Catholic was that Catholics believe the host IS the body of Christ and C of E that it REPRESENTS the body of Christ. Well I am well and truly mixed up then because even though I am Catholic I have to admit that I really can't bring myself to believe it IS the body of Christ. Eeeew I wouldn't eat it otherwsie.

What about an early 'midnight mass' on Christmas Eve?
? I think our local church does one at 6pm.

So if neuromatic has a point then you and I are not really catholics marge because we don't truly believe.
Not saying anything agains neuromantic, she has a good point, but from that then I cannot claim to be a catholic.
Thoughm, to be fair, to me, I don't.
I always say 'I was brought up a catholic' or 'I am meant to be a catholic' the latter always raises a smile, though that is never my intention

My mum and dad never questioned whether I went to church a student, but then they thought happily lived in -denial-- my BF and I had seperate bedrooms
But somehow because I live 5 miles away and have a young family, I can be quizzed and questioned.
note: They haven't actual had a 'talk' with me yet. Who knows they might be about to suggest that they will take DD and DS. Though, undoubtedly I would still be expected to deliver them on time and prob 10 mins earlier to my mums house. So an even earlier start and Loads of guilt and pressure if I tried to walk away.
Oh that is all just made up and probably entirely unjustified. And would all be a touch ... I don't know. . . weird.

This all sounds weird.

If you don't want to go to church, be it on a Saturday, a Sunday, or even Christmas day, don't bother. You can do what you like. If your parents don't like it they can lump it surely?

It seems like there is a whole lot of bother here participating in a religion that you don't really seem to know a whole lot about (differences between Catholic and Protestant) or even seem to be that committed to.

If you like going to church, go when you want to go. Don't be forced into it by your parents. Do what you want for Christmas.

Why on earth do you feel like you need your parents' permission?

Agreed. Go or don't go to please yourself but don't do it just to placate your parents.

Well when your dad has had his 'talk' with you, you tell him in no uncertain terms that what your family do or believe in is none of his business! Stand up to him!

amicissima I think the thread is working across itself.
The christmas service will not have Sunday school after, but the week to week one does.
I am talking in general when I say I am up 5 days out of 7, not in the week up to christmas. Although, our schools don't break up until Thurs 22nd so, yeah, pretty much all go until the day itself.

You have a very good point about it being part of the community. The next town is our nearest RC church, so that is where we would have to go.
I am beginning to think that I would be happy to drop the RC thing and try to become more part of the community by taking DD along to a local Free C of S. They seem a little more focused on the children with their youth club type of afternoon and taking the children out of the service for sunday school rather than afterward. Presumably they do this at some point during the service and not simply part company at the door. I would like her to experience some of the service. But that is to be discovered.

And I think that it sounds much nicer that God loves us all and we are guilt free and grateful.

I want to have something in my life but I am not sure I want it to come coupled with pressure. The RC priest actually clocked how many times I had attended and commented on it.
eek, so if I don't make it, it will be noted and an acceptable excuse required before I am forgiven?
I don't know if he realsied that that kind of thing would kneejerk me away but it did.
As does my parents pressure.
It has knee jerked me into re assessing my whole belief and what I want for me and my children. Possibly out of RCatholisism (sorry, all that looks all wrong?) altogether.

Ok so if you want (my parents) my children to have some form of religious education, I will ensure they get it, but on my terms and at a pace and level that sits well with me and my way of living and thinking.
Does that make sense?

There is usually a First Mass of Christmas the evening before.You could go to that instead.If you are Catholic I dont see why you wouldn't want to go to Mass on Christmas day of all days.

I hope you do your own thing... I have a Catholic MIL and she asks us to go to church for the major holidays, but we have lapsed on that. We do usually try to go Christmas Eve because it is a nice tradition. We aren't religious at all but go for her sake occasionally and to give the kids a small taste of religion so they don't rebel later and become ministers like my little brother did.

Thats just it pranma I have said a few times now, I do not claim to be a catholic.
I tell anyone who asks, if it comes up, that I am 'meant' to be a catholic or I was 'brought up catholic' I do not say I am catholic.
I am just under pressure from my parents to be catholic and to bring my children up in the faith.