to think that yesterday's strikes were a bit of a non-event?

[grovel]

Whether you supported them or not?

iggi999 er how is this paying taxes ??.......
Taxpayer money of £20 k is given to public sector worker.
Pub Sector worker gives back £4k of that £20 k.

Public sector worker has contributed nothing. It is the same if they had just been paid £16 in one go, rather than 2 stages.
I cannot believe that is difficult to understand.

I cannot believe what a bubble public sector workers are in if they think handing back 1/4 of what you have just been given is 'Contributing' something.

I cannot join a union like majority of people as my company only has a handful of employees, and Myboss does not earn much herself, so I cannot force her to give me more If I formed a union.
Most employees in UK work for companies smaller than 200 workers.
It just those with the power protecting their own self interest, at least admit that public sector workers !

I picked up on your 'point' that public sector work is 'secondary' and not essential.

You also conveniently ignored the fact that the vast majority of people in private sector jobs do not do 'essential' work that provides food and shelter.

Of course I realise that we need the private sector to generate wealth. No one is arguing that we don't. But the private sector need the public sector too. How many bankers or shop assistants or builders or call centre workers could do their jobs if they were illiterate and sick?

I think a lot of the shoppers were people with their kids that had to take a days leave to look after them due to school closures.

Thanks Cocking, yes I did! Mrs Mercer, Mrs McDougall and Mrs McEwan if you are out there I thank you.

I love the whole 'we deserve our large pension because we keep the rest of you healthy and educated' argument.

Yes I shall join the TUC! The answer to me being on reduced hours is to spend more money and join a union as that will solve the company's financial problems...

Julia, I've yet to see you give an intelligent response to my position on this thread or another. Mainly because you wear a very good pair of blinkers.

Nope you seem to think that joining a union is the solution to everyone's problem. Go figure.

hockey,who's cocking?

I didn't join our union to 'solve the company's financial problems' and don't know anyone who did. I joined my union for their support, legal and financial, in case of unfair conditions at my work or in case I ever have to defend my work in court in the future.

Julia seemed to be saying join a union for those who are saying they can't do this or that because they 'don't have a union'. Not as a solution to company finances.

Oops, just took a random selection of letters from their name! I meant cother

The private sector wouldn't exist or function without the public sector. The public sector wouldn't exist or function without the private sector.

It's a give and take relationship on both sides but the governments play us all like pawns causing debates like this where people who should, in an ideal world, be working together towards a similar end, and we end up resenting each other.

There will never be a satisfactory resolution until certain MPs put the country before their flock wall paper.

Is it an auto correct Hockey? Loads of people call me cocking - I've stopped being offended

Or if one parent had to remain home for many more years rather than paying full time child care. Public sector wages also support private sector jobs. They are spent in shops, restaurants, hairdressers, on cleaners, on manufactured goods. And vice versa. Most money is just circulated. Do I think it is fair that some people have no pensions? Absolutely not. Is it fair that some people could save but don't? No. If you have no pension, you will still need state support, above and beyond the basic pension so will still gain some benefits.
If we want fairness then there should be a minimum and maximum wage. No one actually deserves more than ten times more than the lowest paid. They don't actually work ten times harder because they can't be working eighty hours a day can they? I feel dreadful for people in the private sector on nmw with no pension, but they won't get tax reductions when pensions are changed. You might find your business suffers as millions have less to spend each month.

No, I think it is just the combination of near letters that aren't real words which the brain tries to turn into something it recognises (says a lot about me that my brain recognises cocking as a real word!).

The problem is this:

Nurses: can't feed/comfort/toilet elderly people in their care, because they are too busy/important. Kindly drag yourself to the hospital to ensure the basic needs of your elderly relative (advice from nursing professional bodies). This is where most of the general public come in regular contact with the NHS. Not at the emergency/childrens' cancer end where people become evangelical about NHS "saviours".

Teachers: so ideologically knocked over the head ("no elitism here, thank you very much, much better for everyone to be a bit rubbish") that they are failing all children except the self motivated. Remind me again how many have been sacked for incompetence by the self-regulatory body; about 11 in total.

Most people could get over the public/private provisions if they thought it was remotely worth it. And, er, it isn't.

Well its a completely fucking pointless thing to do, given I would have legal protection by other means in my situation. Utterly ridiculous. Unions are NOT appropriate for everyone and I wish people would get that into their narrow little brains. If you work for a small company like me, it really is pissing your money away.

I would say it would be better to put it into a pension, but if you don't get company contributions, right now you'd end up paying more in fees than you'd make in interest.

Some of the comments on this debate, ON BOTH sides are beyond brainless.

No-one said that everyone should be in a union. Only those that wish to be in a union. And comments about intelligence, brainless etc are diluting your argument.

I'm not the one striking Calyx. You guys need to convince the private sector. Not the other way round.

And julia on several occasions has said exactly that to me, after I've said about working for a small company.

In my book, if a business is doing badly something has to give. Pensions generally are the first thing to go. It sucks but its the lesser of evils.

I see very little difference in scaling it up to a governmental level. The alternative means that there will be more job cuts. Which isn't in anyone's interest.

Anyone who thinks this money will suddenly magically appear from somewhere to solve this problem is deluding themselves.

I must be an odd-ball because I can see both sides, the only way forward is to compromise.

I want my DC to be educated, I could turn to the private sector and educate them privately, I could sign up to BUPA and have all my health care looked after, I could even pay someone to pick up my rubbish. I just have to find a way to pay for it all. I don't want to live in a society where I only look after myself. I (sort of) don't mind paying my taxes as I can see the value I get. It would cost so much more if I did everything privately. HOWEVER, making a profit is not always easy for business, there are no guarantees. If you can remember Equitable Life they were promised an agreed income but when the money ran out policyholders were left with very little.

If you can see both sides of an argument compromise is not far off. Please try.

Well said Jolly; I can see both sides too and agree compromise is the only thing. I striked yesterday after a lot of serious thought and one of the main things which made up my mind was the government saying their offer of 'no change if you're within 10 years of retirement' was their last offer, no concessions and no negotiation. Our union said the government had given this last offer after refusing to show the figures they used to work out sustainability etc. No negotiation.

And since then - politicians keep saying 'negotiations are ongoing'. They weren't really.

Agreed, well said jolly. If it doesn't sound sucky, I've noticed a lot of that from you lately! I voted no to striking, but then had to go with the majority decision. I think there could be compromise. For example, work longer, yes. Not easy, but not easy for any one. Hopefully with good systems in place for those who genuinely cannot work. Then either keep contributions ad they are, to receive a bit less. That way, people's monthly wages are jot decimated and spending power reduced. For new entrants a lesser deal altogether, and they can at least make an informed decision.

Calyx the unions are spouting that the private sector is really well off.
The private sector is pissing itself laughing at that in many cases.

On Wednesday there was a negative reaction to a 1% pay increase by a lot of public sector workers.

Do you have any idea of how much of slap in the face that is to a lot of people?

As for all this bollocks about how X job is way more important than Y job. Well last time I looked it was a symbiotic relationship between private and public sector.

I think a lot of the NHS/Councils etc would come grinding to a halt if its suppliers stopped overnight.

I don't buy into the idea that one job is 'more important' than another. One job helps another to do theirs.

Nicey, I am with you about things needing to change and that increasing pension contributions will be necessary but with the proper reasoned negotiations and agreement on the rate of increase etc, like the ones that were done a few years ago. Contributions went up with little or no possibility of having a higher pension as a result. The staff did not strike.

I just think it's too much, too fast and done sneakily with no fair negotiations. I felt as though, if we hadn't made our stand, the government would think oh that was easy - maybe we will do it again in a year or two.

The government might be doing one thing, but the unions are actively lying to their members about this too. I find the whole thing utterly sickening. Thats why I get intensely peeved in the same way teachers do about this mythology about how easy one or other side has it. Its not true.