to think that yesterday's strikes were a bit of a non-event?

[grovel]

Whether you supported them or not?

'Yesterday's strikes were a non-event'. No doubt those agreeing would be delighted if the strikes had brought the country to a halt. Doubt it. The strikes were a very successful opening round of what is shaping up to be a long fight to defend the public sector and welfare state in the face of a Tory party determined to protect their City supporters and make us pay for a crisis that they caused. Any regular ordinary average people who imagine they will benefit if publc sector pensions are reduced is deluded.

can I just ask all those people who say they have no pension, what happens when you retire?

You get the state pension which the teachers get in addition to their occupational pension.

If all the public sector workers (those who are 'not generating any money for the country') decided to do private sector work to 'generate money for the country' .... no I can't even carry on. There's no point. :(

And those in the (long suffering) private sector - does the CEO of your firm also have no pension?

Erm... can I just ask to all the people who insist on shouting 'Tory' at every opportunity in this debate, what exactly you think any other party would have done differently? And to ask, who was it who commissioned all these reports to change terms of pensions? It would have happened under any government under the circumstances.

It really undermines the argument when you can't even see that part of the politics or be aware of the details of where its all come from. I just think thats part of the union's political agenda, which isn't about workers rights.

Public sector workers just do 'other useful back up work like look after kids'

My boss has no pension.

I work for a small company of 4 people. Like 3 million other workers in this country, Julia...

But of course, I forget! All private sector workers work for billion dollar international corporations.

(rolls eyes)

Can I also point out that "the City" provides 20% of this country's Gross Domestic Product. You might not like that those there earn high salaries and bonuses but a small sector of the UK is producing one fifth of the country's money. The minority who produce that amount are surely worth significant salaries from which they pay significant taxes. Someone on £500,000 pays approximately £250,000 in tax. Think about it.

How are nurses, binmen, cleaners, teachers not essential??

Is someone working in a clothes shop more 'essential' than them?

I think you have this backward. Some essential services (e.g. healthcare) do not directly generate wealth. That's just the way it is.

The private sector relies on the public sector as well. How successful would the private sector be with a sick, uneducated workforce, with no protection for their property, with no protection from foreign invasion?

I thoroughly enjoy the idea that having a workforce that can read, write, haven't dropped dead of an infectious disease, didn't die during childbirth, have access to an acceptable level of sanitation, and are safe from violence and fire is 'useful back up work'.

Hear hear slacksally and hockeyforjockeys.

I thought only income over a certain threshold was taxed at 50%, rather than the entire salary - thus someone on a half a million pounds salary would not be paying £250 000 in tax

I would also have thought that they would be aware of and making use of the many legal tax avoidance strategies

Perhaps someone could clarify?

married, sadly you are right. A "heavy hitter in the City" pays 50% tax on his/her bonus. If they got no bonus the company's profit would go up and it would only be taxed at 25% on the increment. The government gets more money from taxing bonuses than banning them.

The sad bit is the greed of the "heavy hitters" in trying to avoid (legally) taxes. IME they simply don't recognise the contribution of the "little people" who create the sound society for them to thrive in.

On a desert island when short of food, most kids would help and VERY VERY few ( ie not half !!) people would be spare to look after small kids and elderly sick. Can you not understand percenagess ?
In the third world or anyway when things are desperate mothers wear babies on their backs while they work.
The general point I was trying to make is secondary things like public sector do should be the minority - they are only possible if the majority work to CONTRIBUTE something.
It would be ;lovley to have 90 n% of all UK working looking after ill, children in amazing beautiful perfect buildings, wonderful services, but it has to be REALISTIC and affordable by all the private sector workers , the ones who contribute !
What do I think you do when you have no pension ???
I guess I willl have to keep working in a strenuous job just like a teacher til i'm [past 68 or I'll be v v poor living off benfits........but so glad my income tax has paid for Binmen and Teachers pensions living near me so they are comfortable ?!!!!!!

Wow, you just typed a series of letters and they made words that the rest of us are reading! And you did it on a computer that someone invented. And I'll happily bet that you typed it while sitting in a house in a clean and sanitised street.

It's like magic that way it all just happens.

The problem is that we don't live a subsistence lifestyle on a desert island so it's a bit of a pointless argument. The reason that pubic services were set up and continue to exist is because a healthy, well-educated workforce is far more economically productive. There is a direct correlation between countries that have very poor or non-existent public services and those with the lowest GDP.

I have been a cleaner on minimum wages, it was bloody terrible and what gave me the motivation to go to university and get a well paying job. I have nothing but admiration for the women who had no choice but to continue with the job simply so they could put food on the table. What they deserve is access to good quality health and personal care in their retirement years. Their children deserve to have the opportunities to make a better future for themselves. How can they have this? By having good quality public services that are staffed by hard working and talented individuals, who are attracted to the job by both job satisfaction and a decent benefits package.

Slackally, Hockey you have completely missed my point .

Those things you mention are essntial in a stable, successful society but they have to be paid for, and born by the rest.

There is a balance. It is too far the public sctors way.
Can we have half the population educating kids, providing service like bin men, hospitals, govt admin paid for by only the remianing 50%.
IT SHOULD be more like 80 / 20 %. ie realistic with no waste.

There ismusch less waste in private sector as if there is not enough money a task is stopped or a person is sacked.

How can you justify one section of the workforce having powerful unions to protect them when ogter worst paid private sector workers have no-one to protect them .

Admit you do not care about commitments being kept. IF they were being massively improved you would not moan would you ? YOU just want the best deal for YOURSELVES !

hockey can I keep you? You say what I want to say so much better than I could. Did you have fabulous teachers?

Twocotbeds your earlier post was completely barmy.
Talk about having things arse about face.

Loads of people are being sacked from their public sector jobs

and theres nothing to stop you joining a union

Twocotbeds what do you think the government should do?

And did you actually write that public sector workers do not pay taxes? If you are representative of private sector workers then god help us all.

We went to a local soft play who obviously did well as they had to keep emptying the till! My ds enjoyed his day off and the support staff at school said they had a good day as they got to put the Xmas decorations up in peace and catch up on paperwork!

Twocotbeds - the 'argument' between public and private is very one-way, it only ever comes from the private sector workers. Unions are set up and run democratically by workers; if you want a union to represent you in your workplace, contact the relevant regional TUC; they'll be delighted to hear from you. Unionised workers are keen to share the benefits they get from being organised. We don't see any advantage in divide and rule.